sippi
269 posts
May 21, 2008
5:37 PM
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Let me muddy the water a litte more with some hypothesis.
Shaun I have seen pics of a lot of lofts in the UK. Ponder this if you will.
Hardly any of the hard line purist birds in the U.S. favor the birds in the UK. I propose that Pensom imported only the colors that he favored. As well I propose that he did not import any Whittingham birds and that they have had a great influence on the birds still found in the UK. The birds in the UK have a greater variety of color and patterns than the Ash Red/Blue/black check birds of the purists in the US. Pensom for whatever reason denied that he knew of the Whittinghams. That had to have been a blatant misinformation.
Many of the colors present in the lofts in the UK are the same as the imports from the Whittingham families that were brought to the US and Canada for almost a hundred years.
I contend that the Whittingham blood that is still pure in this country is as, or more pure Birmingham than probably most of the Pure Pensoms.
I have also seen reduced and milky present in the pictures of the UK lofts. What other factors are there can only be recognized by the trained eye.
Unless one has an understanding of genetics one cannot quantify what is present.
Shaun do you think any of my postulations hold water?
sippi
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fhtfire
1364 posts
May 21, 2008
6:01 PM
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Of course the Birmingham is a cross breed...at one time most breeds were crossed with something to make the breed...or fine tuned within the breed....that is the point you need to look at....fine tune within the breed....that is what is right.....crossing another breed into an established breed is nonsense...and second...a couple guys decided to mess with crossing..so that means that all briminghams are crossed and have color in the genes...I DON"T THINK SO>...MOST do not cross Rollers with other breeds......and I do not agree with the Parlor cross..no cross what so ever...Just because a couple guys wrote articles talking about the colors they have does not mean that it is right.....I have yet to see a loft with colored birds...why...becuase only a handful choose to do it for the color.....again...every breed was crossed at one point......to get the breed set....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 6:03 PM
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Ty Coleman
303 posts
May 21, 2008
6:07 PM
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Paul F, What year did you draw your line? And lets not go goats or cows in your answer because you have already stated that the pigeon is used for research because it changes faster than other animals,not goats or cows,apples to apples.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 6:10 PM
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sippi
271 posts
May 21, 2008
6:09 PM
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Paul I dont mean this in a condescending or ill way but how much knowledge do you have in genetics? I have seen color factors in lofts that the owner doesnt even know he has them. Far be it for me to tell him any different because he would just get mad or deny it.
sippi
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MILO
1019 posts
May 21, 2008
6:11 PM
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Sippi.
You are welcome to come over to my house and point out all of my mongrel crosses with your genetic expertise.
c
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sippi
273 posts
May 21, 2008
6:16 PM
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Milo I am in no way an expert on color. I would like to be but my animal husbandry education was in large animals and not birds.
But what I am saying is if you dont know what chocolate is you cant tell what it tastes like.
sippi
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Scott
628 posts
May 21, 2008
6:43 PM
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Sippi , Milkey comes from crossbreeding,no if ands or butts,let me guess,you think you saw one in the Dave Mosely Pictures I sent you.
Also, if you think that only the hard colors prevail here in the states you need to get around some, not true.
As for the Wittinghams, they went the way of the do do bird in this country for a reason,maybe shaun or the others can answer better than I , but most the top flyers birds over there go back tothe same lofts that Penson pinched birds from.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
275 posts
May 21, 2008
7:26 PM
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Can you say "LAVENDER"? Not sure what I saw in Daves loft. And I wasnt going to bring his loft into it. That would be unfair on my part and betraying your trust. Lavender according to Levi in 1965 is spread milky. How many mainstream lofts have lavenders. Pic 40 was the odd color in Daves loft but that is between you and me.
What I did see are some familiar patterns in his and several others that are/were Whittingham primary markings, namely whitesides and mottles.
Whittinghams were also in the Black Country. What I have postulated just requires you to open your mind a little. It has no basis other than three generations of Whittinghams exported thier birds here for almost a hundred years. As close knit as the Black Country group were it would stand to reason that they also had thier birds in the mix.
Stictly theory.
Sippi
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Ty Coleman
308 posts
May 21, 2008
8:16 PM
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Sippi you taught me something LAVENDER i had to check it out and your right. This shows my ignorance,WOW i wonder how many others did not know this. Scott's so called turd just hit a lot of breeders punch bowls lol. Ive seen alot of people post lavender birds on here.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
629 posts
May 21, 2008
8:22 PM
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Paul, Lavander is not what the color breeders call Milky, Milky might be what some old timers call Lavanders,but not the same as the Milky crossbreds the color breeders push, lavanders have allways been in the breed.
As for pic # 40 of Mosleys birds, it has nothing to do with betraying trust,nothing funny there.
Sippi make no mistake, the rare colors are crossbreds,plain and simple.
The entire loft was based off of six birds out of the same loft of the same family well over 30 years ago and goes back to Ollie Haris.
As for the guy that thought he had the real deal and you found "rare" color, I feel sorry for the poor guy,it means he got duped by some shmoe as he got something that wasn't what it was supposed to be.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 8:25 PM
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sippi
277 posts
May 21, 2008
8:24 PM
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Like I said you cant know what chocolate tastes like if you dont know what it is. There's MORE!!!!!!!! Not interested in color debate. I am interested in some thoughts on an informed theory.
Sippi
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sippi
278 posts
May 21, 2008
8:37 PM
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Scott you mistook my statement. Not saying that there is anything funny going on. I am purely interested in the color of #40 purely out of curiosity. You sent me those pictures and unless you tell me to or you bring it up that is considered between you and me. Not trying to insinuate anything just I dont think it is ethical for me to use those pics in any form or fashion unless you expressly told me to. Just the way I am.
Sippi
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Ty Coleman
309 posts
May 21, 2008
8:39 PM
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Sippi i dont think that fit his agenda. lmao
Knowledge is power, ignorance is bliss.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
632 posts
May 21, 2008
8:40 PM
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Sippi, as far as Krupt, Wittingham ect. and those prior to the Pensom Imports.
Honestly I have no interest in them what so-ever, as thier birds didn't stand the test of time and had no impact on the mainstream birds of today, they are just a non factor.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
279 posts
May 21, 2008
8:48 PM
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Scott the Whittinghams(people not birds) were alive when Pensom died. They were also still exporting birds up until around 1960. They lived in the Black Country as did the other famous pigeon keepers. I am just putting forward food for thought. If you dont want to expand your mind and ponder what I have postulated so be it. But right, wrong, or indifferent the two families are intertwined.
Sippi
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Scott
634 posts
May 21, 2008
9:33 PM
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(They were also still exporting birds up until around 1960.)
Sippi, I have no reason to doubt you on this, yet they still have no impact on the birds that are in the mainstream lofts today.
I don't know anyone who has birds that go back that way, and I have met and know a large part of the mainstream flyers in the country, including having those from England, Canada and Holland in my home,never have I heard Wittingham or birds going back to Wittingham come up.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 9:47 PM
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Scott
636 posts
May 21, 2008
9:43 PM
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(Sippi i dont think that fit his agenda. lmao
Knowledge is power, ignorance is bliss.)
What am I ignorant on Ty ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 9:49 PM
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Ty Coleman
316 posts
May 21, 2008
9:58 PM
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Scott, that wasnt inteended to call you ignorant it was just a saying i read with the emphasis on knowledge is power. so excusse me if you will however the not fitting you agenda part is how it looks to me as for Paul is producing facts on record and your not presenting facts just thought and well i wouldnt even say theorys.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
638 posts
May 21, 2008
10:02 PM
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Facts on what Ty ?
As for the "ignorant" remark, don't worry about hurting my feelings, I'm an old Marine and have been in construction my whole life, I don't get my fellings hurt by bozos pecking on a key board,trust me LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 10:07 PM
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sippi
282 posts
May 21, 2008
10:04 PM
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The last Whittingham(person again) went off the radar about 1960. Something went with those birds. I would like to have talked to James Graham and see if he knew what happened. Not really a must know just like to research things like that. I just find it curious that the birds in England all seem to have the markings that were prevalent in that family in thier lofts. May never know.
Now that you mention it the only place you hear of the infusion of Whit blood is in the northeast and that kinda went by the wayside in the early sixties. But there were a lot of birds out there that werent Pensoms too.
I also never see Almonds in UK loft pics either.
HMMMMM?
Sippi
Sippi
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Ty Coleman
317 posts
May 21, 2008
10:07 PM
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Paul, Lavander is not what the color breeders call Milky, Milky might be what some old timers call Lavanders,but not the same as the Milky crossbreds the color breeders push, lavanders have allways been in the breed. This is opinion untill DNA says other wise. This is gonna take me a while.
Sippi, as far as Krupt, Wittingham ect. and those prior to the Pensom Imports.
Honestly I have no interest in them what so-ever, as thier birds didn't stand the test of time and had no impact on the mainstream birds of today, they are just a non factor. I was cool with this until the test of time and non factor was added-- opinion
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 10:10 PM
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Scott
639 posts
May 21, 2008
10:12 PM
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(Now that you mention it the only place you hear of the infusion of Whit blood is in the northeast )
That was my thought also Sippi, but not now for the most part, I judged all of the N. East 5-6 years ago.
Although the Testa stuff might have gone back that way though, and I'm sure there are a few others that aren't mainstream also.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
640 posts
May 21, 2008
10:14 PM
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(I was cool with this until the test of time and non factor was added-- opinion)
Ty, they are a non factor, that isn't an opinion
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
642 posts
May 21, 2008
10:18 PM
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
319 posts
May 21, 2008
10:25 PM
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Scott if i ever get divorced again im hiring you as my lawyer OK lol Tony's gonna kick our butts for running rabbits here were way off topic.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 10:28 PM
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Shaun
601 posts
May 21, 2008
11:34 PM
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So, Ty, David stated that cross-breeding was done in the 70's and 80's in the UK - and that's it, you're hooked? One US colour guy who reads a bit makes a statement like that, and you're prepared to assume it's correct and be shocked by that state of affairs. No the wonder debates like this don't get anywhere.
To repeat, UK birds were heavily exported during those decades, just across the water to mainland Europe, but much further to South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Given that their top flyers contest the world cup and the likes of Johnny Conradie have been to judge their birds (and those of the UK), and confirms there simply aren't the colours in all those birds which exist within US rollers... hell, what more are you looking for?
Sippi I know nowt about Wittinghams, for no better reason than his name doesn't crop up amongst UK flyers. That's not to say there's no merit in what you say, it's just I wouldn't be able to confirm or deny one way or the other. However, insofar as colour and pattern are concerned, the likes of Ollie Harris and Bill Barrett birds, were the foundations of most UK flyers. There is one notable exception: Pete Handy who won the 2004 W/C had stock from an old timer called Wilf Portman.
Something else before I forget: you guys can't have it both ways. On the one hand, there are assertions that any rollers with dodgy colours are hurriedly got rid of, when they crop up in the UK (allegedly to hide all that cross-breeding), yet on the other hand we see statements that such and such a colour has been spotted within a notable flyer's birds. Which is it to be: Is the UK hiding its dark cross-breeding past, or is it openly on display?
Take a look at the UK forum on this site (if you can understand some of the regional dialogue, that is - after all, us Brits are heavily cross-bred!). Read through the posts and see how often the subject of cross-breeding or 'odd' colour crops up. Then look again at threads on the US side and see the clear difference. We have nothing to talk about on such matters, whilst you guys debate it endlessly.
Shaun
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fhtfire
1365 posts
May 21, 2008
11:37 PM
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Sipi,
I have stated already..that I am no color expert and I am not a genetics expert...and to me the only genetics experts that I know of..work here at UC Davis and trust me...the way they talk about genetics...is way above my head..LOL..but as far as pigeons go....I do not know every color out there..but I do know a non color when I see it....Of course there are lavender..you say are milky...I have lavenders in my loft...I have never claimed to be a pigeon genetics expert....I too have had most of my knowledge from being raised in a farming community and have more medals on my 4-H hat for breeding projects that I was getting neck pain from the weight...I hold a state farmer degree in FFA for my Dairy goat breeding projects....and was a national showman for dairy goat dairys that needed me as a hired gun.....lol..basically to run there breeding for shows..etc..anyway...I got off track...
as far as colored birds...I will take a picture of everybird in my loft and you will not see a rare color...trust me....you know as well as I know what a rare color looks like......My whole point over and over was that I do not agree with crossing in another breed for color and not performance...I am not talking about breeding for performance after the damage has been done (crossing)...and it does not do the breed justice when some sell the birds claiming to be birminghams when they are not....just to make a buck....our hobby is dying a slow death because of video games....and computers..kids do not want to do anything that does not give them instant gratification....then the kids or new fliers that want to get into this great hobby...find an internet site..."Birmingham rollers for sale" and they are all excited..then they see the "pretty colors" and buy them and the birds either swan dive into the ground...or do crappy dish rag tumbles....wont stay in the kit..etc....(I am not talking about the birds that have color from 30 years ago...I am talking the F1's for sale or a couple generations..anyway..I hope you get my point.
As far as me being an expert...nope.....pure common sense on this issue....you are right..knowledge is power....but the reason I really do not know a lot about the different colors..is well...I do not study them...why....no need...I BREED FOR PERFORMANCE....not color....no need to get a woody trying to figure out what color I will get if I cross in a different breed...or challenge myself to make a roller roll carrying a rare color....The challenge to me is trying to breed as many Champions as I can get...and take performance steps forward every year...it is hard enough putting together a championship team..let alone try and get a color to stick..so I don't know how to get rare colors and don't care to know....
do I hope I answered that question....NOT AN EXPERT>>>NEVER CLAIMED TO BE>>>>
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 11:44 PM
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fhtfire
1366 posts
May 21, 2008
11:41 PM
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Ok..second answer..when do I think the line was drawn...I think the birds became a breed or were set....way back when in the early 1900's....the writing of a couple guys adding color here and there.....well that is only a couple guys playing with pigeons...when I read Pensoms book...well...my birds look like the photos...and roll like he explains what a roller should do...and I strive to meet the standard of the birmingham roller.....could it be the 1950's ...sure it could be....the fact is we can never set a for sure date..but that is irrelevent.....becuase if it was 30, 40 or 1950...regardless of the year....other breeds should never be used to cross in color to the birmingham roller..period...and that goes for any breed of animal..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Shaun
602 posts
May 21, 2008
11:50 PM
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Hey, Paul. You're not even in bed the night before and I'm already up the day after! Get some rest, man.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1251 posts
May 22, 2008
3:54 AM
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I said I was done with this but you all know how I am.LOL.
Paul F. You said:our hobby is dying a slow death because of video games....and computers..kids do not want to do anything that does not give them instant gratification....then the kids or new fliers that want to get into this great hobby...find an internet site..."Birmingham rollers for sale" and they are all excited..then they see the "pretty colors" and buy them and the birds either swan dive into the ground...or do crappy dish rag tumbles....wont stay in the kit..etc....(I am not talking about the birds that have color from 30 years ago...I am talking the F1's for sale or a couple generations..anyway..I hope you get my point.
The up side of this is that at least they got away from computer games and was inticed into the hobby even if it was just by the fancy color.Which is worse the games or color.
I know Ca has more roller breeders and flyers than I know so I am guessing that you know someone who is doing this crossing and selling the F1s to unsuspecting buyers.
Rather than clump all of us that breeds color within the breed as one group why not just expose the limited ones you know who does this.I would bet you can't name 3 that does this.LOL
On the lavender thing.I am no genetic expert either but I am almost positive that the Lavender we most often see in rollers is not the Milky that is found in the Lahores.If you mate any ash red with a black you will get the Lavender in rollers we most often see.I may be wrong which I am quite often.David
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2539 posts
May 22, 2008
4:03 AM
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Good Morning David, my Ash Reds carry the spread gene, this displays itself as Lavender. When my Blues Series birds display the spread gene I get black.
So someone else with knowledge of genetics can tell me I am incorrect, but until then, the spread gene that is responsible for lavender in my birds is NOT "milky". ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Shaun
603 posts
May 22, 2008
4:34 AM
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Good morning, Mr Strait. As Mr Fullerton is probably in bed, I'd just like to pre-empt what he meant, then he can correct me if he meant something else.
Yes, it's great if we can save just one youngster from the twin evils of computers and console games. The fact that they might take up pigeons, ...well, wouldn't that be a feather in someone's cap (pun intended). But, our spotty youth - whose mates are now ripping the piss out of him for playing with pigeons - stands firm and wants to see some real Birmingham Rollers in action. So, he flies a few and wonders what the fuss is about. Then he breeds a few and can't get them to do what it said on the label. So, he packs it in and goes back to the shallow but immediate satisfaction of the virtual world.
The fact is, David, that people have to be enticed into pigeons for the right reasons. There are many fancy breeds out there for those who just want to keep their pigeons indoors and pose prettily on a perch. There are also performance pigeons which can be very rewarding, but also very frustrating. Surely, roller flying is challenging enough without introducing colour into the equation?
I do appreciate what some of you are saying in the colour debates, when drawing upon highly competent geneticists, but the question I've always had is whether the ordinary man or woman taking up rollers, who doesn't have a sound genetics knowledge, is likely to prosper with 'modified' rollers in the same way as someone who takes on the plain old BRs, which haven't been bred with colour in mind - only performance.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1252 posts
May 22, 2008
5:07 AM
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Shaun.I was just pointing out one good bright side of things.There is many things that are good in life if we have an open mind and look for them.LOL.
Yes I am against anyone selling anything and not telling the truth about it.
Same as pure rollers selling for 300.00 a pair and never producing any good offspring.It happens and is sad when money takes the place of honesty.
And is why I stated that it would be far more easy to expose the ones that does this rather than lump either side into any one group. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1253 posts
May 22, 2008
5:26 AM
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Tony.This is a perfect example of how one little gene can change the color of a bird.Smokey,Sooty,Dirty etc.will also change what we see.So many variations we see yet there is only the 3 colors in any pigeon.
And the big point I have been trying for years to get across is that whatever color we think we see it has nothing to do with the roll IF we follow the ROLL.
Even if one does have a side project and introduces another shade of color from another breed as long as the end product meets the Standard of the roller it can be called a TRUE Birmingham Roller.It can not be called a PURE Birmingham Roller.
And this is why some would spend 10 years in experimenting with different things.The end result is what we desire.Anything in between should never leave the backyard.There is no restrictions set in place other than the Standard we all try to breed for.
This is just the way I feel and believe.David
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2541 posts
May 22, 2008
6:30 AM
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Shaun said:
"I do appreciate what some of you are saying in the colour debates, when drawing upon highly competent geneticists, but the question I've always had is whether the ordinary man or woman taking up rollers, who doesn't have a sound genetics knowledge, is likely to prosper with 'modified' rollers in the same way as someone who takes on the plain old BRs, which haven't been bred with colour in mind - only performance".
Shaun, very well said. I think at the end of the day, this is what is most important: are we going to preserve the performance and therefore the very reason the Birmingham Roller exists and should be flown at all?
Great Perspective!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on May 22, 2008 6:32 AM
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Electric-man
1608 posts
May 22, 2008
6:55 AM
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David said:
Even if one does have a side project and introduces another shade of color from another breed as long as the end product meets the Standard of the roller it can be called a TRUE Birmingham Roller.It can not be called a PURE Birmingham Roller.
And this is why some would spend 10 years in experimenting with different things.The end result is what we desire.Anything in between should never leave the backyard.There is no restrictions set in place other than the Standard we all try to breed for.
This is just the way I feel and believe.David
I have to disagree with this practice! Nothing personal David, just "my" own beliefs!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on May 22, 2008 6:57 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1254 posts
May 22, 2008
7:20 AM
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Val.None taken.
But I have often thought "What if no one ever experimented with the roller in the first place."
There is a lot of Folks with genetic knowledge that can do these things.Myself I don't have time or patience to even undertake any project that takes over one breeding season.I even quit crossing familys.Just switching my breeders I have now keeps me busy.LOL. David
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Gregg
305 posts
May 22, 2008
9:59 AM
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{I have to edit this already. Credit has to go to David for the thought as I glossed over the "David said:" Irregardless of who said it, I agree with it. Sorry Val, as you said, nothing personal. I just feel that it is a very apt way of differentiating between "Pure" which so many treasure as an adjective and "True" which so many desire as descriptive of their rollers.} Gregg.
Hi Val,
I haven't posted in a long time. I have been lurking occasionally and have browsed a bit of this thread. You just put it succinctly and being a color breeder I can totally agree with you on the "True" versus the "Pure."
I have two (dear to my heart, and a couple that are just "on hold" now) projects that are rollers but not at the performance levels that I demand. Until they are such, and I am close, they will remain just that, project birds even though they are so close to "pure" that it is only a fine line seperating them.
One, my bronzes, were there before the paratyphoid at the beginning of this decade. The other, pencil, comes down from James Turner stock many times removed. It is indeed a project, but that project is close. Everything else I have in colors has been in rollers forever or almost forever.
What would make things much easier for everyone is simply being honest about where your birds came from. I am so into the "color and performance" and enjoy both so much that seperating the two would be impossible for me. It has been suggested that I get another breed to play with colors but that is not an option. My love of rollers and genetics is such that if I got rid of my rollers I would be out of pigeons period. And if I had to get out of colors, I would be out of pigeons period.
Getting back to your "Pure" and "True" descriptives. That is the best working terminology that I have ever seen, read or heard. I hope it is accepted by the fancy as an apt way of describing the differences. Actually, I like the "True" descriptive better in that the bird, irrespective of color, has to possess and display the high quality performance to get the label "True." You know as well as I that there are many birds on both sides of the aisle that don't make that grade.
Thanks for putting that thought out here. I like it.
Gregg.
Last Edited by on May 22, 2008 10:06 AM
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Ballrollers
1258 posts
May 22, 2008
10:47 AM
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Shaun
Sorry, I don't mean to sound disingenuous here. But I wasn't there when the Birmingham roller was being developed and in all likely hood, you weren't either.
From reading the post of Tony's, that started this thread, it seemed to indicate that the BR was developed from several different breeds of performing pigeons, they were traded back and forth, it was even suggested that names were changed not the birds, to differentiate performance traits the flyers were interested in. Then it was suggested that all these colors and factors were already identified and bred into one or two of the base breed birds used to develop the BR. So by a leap of faith, the early BR or PRE BR had all of these colors and factors ....WAY BACK WHEN. I am not too sure I buy into all that but that is for each reader to determine. With that in mind. You indicated that the English BR enthusiast was none to interested in all the pretty colors that interested the show bird men.
Here is my point. It seems logical to assume that with this dislike of show bird colors (If they were all present and identified at this time), the men who chose to breed for performance only, these men chose only certain colors that would not have any connection to the show birds and they did this WITHOUT regard of performance seen in birds of color.
Example:
If I was so moved and was so repulsed by the mere color of a bird and I was starting up a new breed of Rolling pigeon, I would not choose an Opal cock and an indigo hen as my foundation pair. I would find me a Blue check cock and a red bar hen. I would pass by the pretty colors, EVEN THOUGH, they had all the performance anyone could ever want, but because of my dislike for the color crowd, I would choose the latter pair. Did it happen that way? Could it have happened that way? NO proof it did.
You connect the dots.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1259 posts
May 22, 2008
10:49 AM
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Duane
Is it possible that WHP may have made an error by not recognizing a poorly expressed Toy stencil? Or a toy stencil masked by an epistasis factor? How geneticly versed was WHP? How many times have any of us mis-identified a bird? It took us, breeding from that bird to show what it carried or what was masked.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1260 posts
May 22, 2008
10:50 AM
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Duane
That is the point! I can't prove it and neither can you. I have an opinion and so do you. We all have opinions. If it was such a big deal, why hasn't the NBRC or WC adopted a color standard? WE have a performance standard. WE all agree to that. WE have a breed of pigeons called Birmingham Rollers, we all agree to that. WE don't have a color standard, and here we have a slight difference of opinions. Hey, connect those dots anyway that makes you happy. I have a strong suspicion that the Mystery is NOT solved.:)
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1261 posts
May 22, 2008
10:51 AM
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Scott
Do you know were the Recessive red came from? Do you know where Bronze came from? Do you know where almond came from? Do you care if birds of those color,perform? Where did Grizzle come from? Where did spread come from? Hey I like this game.big grin :)
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1262 posts
May 22, 2008
10:52 AM
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Milo
I am just a plain ol' hard working guy trying to make a living and enjoy the roller fancy. If half of the claims made against color birds were true, I would NOT be feeding these birds.
I tell you what Milo, I make mistakes almost every day, times are tuff but my birds make me happy. These discussions with these fine men, make me happy and life is good because of it.
You don't have to agree with anything I say and I have the same option with your opinions. What we have in common is roller pigeons, NBRC FLYS, WC flys and interesting discussions.
Serious? ME? Hey I am in it for the fun, and if you weren't enjoying yourself, you would find something else to do. But I have seen generation built on generation of toy stencil and those birds STILL perform to standard. You guys don't see what I see. IF I wasn't told what they are, I may not have even identified them as toy stencil.
That is the funny part of this, most guys could not identify an uncommon factor right in front of them. But still, we have a fine bone to chew on till something better comes along.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1263 posts
May 22, 2008
10:55 AM
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Scott
You don't have to buy anything. You don't have to change anything. You don't have to believe genetics in any way, shape, form, or fashion. I want you to stay your sweet loveable self and enjoy your friggin' pigeons to your hearts content. You do that and I will be happy for you and with you.
But I like Toy stencil. I like the way they look and the way they perform.
Cliff
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fhtfire
1367 posts
May 22, 2008
11:03 AM
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David,
We finally agree...you are right..it is about honesty and not selling a brimingham roller that is truly a cross...that is what I have been trying to say at the begining..it has nothing to do with someone having projects..projects are fun...but do not sell them.....now the guy who just posted and said he is a color breed ..that is cool..he laid it out and said it and he said his birds that he has that are not pure biminghams...he calls them project birds...WOW what a concept...he just earned a huge amount of respect from me....what gets me is this huge argument of Cliff..no names...LOL..trying to prove that toy stencil was an original color..we all know that is bull crap....but again..David...Your last couple of posts were great....
Shaun..you said exactly what I was trying to say...if a kid gets pried away from video games and gets a bunch of crap..he is going to go back...hell it happend to me when I got back into it....until I saw true kits fly...then I knew what I wanted....and I kid you not..when I let out a team at my place to someone who has never seen a roller..they just freak out....they LOVE it..but if I had a bunch of dishrags and rollers hitting the ground like bombs..then that would turn off anybody..lOL..
Good posts at the end.....
Sorry for being up late...we had a structure fire at Applebees (resteraunt)...so i was up late rocking and rolling.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1264 posts
May 22, 2008
11:03 AM
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Good Morning Milo
I did some checking with the man who bred my family of birds. I watched his kits. I checked with other men who flew his birds. I went to their lofts and watched them fly his birds. I read up on genetics texts and I chose my family very carefully. So far, I am very satisfied. Overall, I think what you are advocating is a good idea.
I think back to WHP and one way, how he chose birds. If I recall correctly, he would go try to secure the parents of birds he saw flying, while driving his bus. Hmmmmm
From my view point, Good rollers are rare in most any man's loft, there for, stands to reason, there are more birds who do not measure up to the Birmingham Roller standard, than do. So that may be a reason for thinking that are fewer good birds. The higher your standards the fewer good birds you will see.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1265 posts
May 22, 2008
11:05 AM
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Shaun
I think you are correct that a flyer needs no more than to observe his pigeons and "listen" to what they tell him. I heard that raising a good kit is rather easy after 20-30 years of intense observation. All the books in the world will not move you ahead faster than if you just study your birds. There are no short cuts. There are no easy, quick fixes. I read where on English flyer said something to the effect, Don't pop open the kit door then go inside and drink a spot of tea. You can't learn anything from that.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1266 posts
May 22, 2008
11:09 AM
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Tony
P.10 bottom of page. The PERFECT ROLLER by WHP
"In regard to livestock it is said there is nothing perfect under the sun, and I am compelled to say that the perfect roller does NOT exist, but when I mention the perfect roller, I REFER ENTIRELY TO THE ROLL AND NOT THE PIGEON. IF type COLOR, MARKINGS, and intermediate performing qualities were STANDARDIZED, however, I should readily admit that it is IMPOSSIBLE to produce a perfect BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. Be that as it may, a perfect roll is one that is created at a maximum speed in a straight line downward and looking like a small ball speeding toward earth with ba small hole through the center. Naturally , this performance is the goal of all roller breeders, but even so, a bird capable of rolling perfectly for a considerable distance is by no means a champion."
These dots lead me to an opinion that makes me think WHP did not want a color standard. A champion True Birmingham Roller is an INDIVIDUAL that is rare to behold, not a cookie cutter critter and cannot be mass produced.
Cliff
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fhtfire
1368 posts
May 22, 2008
11:11 AM
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As far as True and PUre....they are not different..they are one in the same...I posted that on another thread...maybe somebody can find it again..I can't lol//
Here is True...
14. Biology. conforming to the type, norm, or standard of structure of a particular group; typical: The lion is a true cat.
15. Animal Husbandry. purebred.
purebred adj.
Of or belonging to a recognized strain established by breeding individuals of unmixed lineage over many generations.
n. (pyrbrd)
A purebred animal.
Ok..the "true" definition is listed above....notice that it includes "A purebred animal"..so when you say something is a true birmingham roller..that means purebred...
and purebred means....individuals of unmixed lineage....
So to have a True..you have to meet the standard...to meet the standard you have to breed true...to breed true is to be a purebred...
SO they are not seprate terms...True is slang for purebred...sounds more elegant for the old way of speaking....So my dog is a true lab...meaning it is a purebred and meets the standard of a lab.....
So..when you say something is True..you are saying it meets the standard...of the PURE BREED>....
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
644 posts
May 22, 2008
11:21 AM
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Cliff, the Toy Stencel comes from a recent cross and I know damn well that you know this !!!!!
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 22, 2008 11:24 AM
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