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Mystery Solved: Color Debate Is Over?...Maybe...
Mystery Solved: Color Debate Is Over?...Maybe...
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Scott
647 posts
May 23, 2008
9:28 PM
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(Scott,
I may have been giving you a bit of teasing just a minute ago but it is time to give you a big 'tip of the hat' for you and your birds performance in the WC finals.
Congratulations as you are now in first place.
Any one who hasn't seen it yet, Scott just put up 893.1 points.
Gregg Sale.)
"American Queerly Colored Rollers" just thinking hard for you here bro LOL
PS thanks, it was pure luck
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 24, 2008 5:05 AM
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Gregg
309 posts
May 24, 2008
7:16 AM
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Scott,
"American Queerly Colored Rollers," damn, I try to be nice and you not only stick it in but you try to twist it a bit on top of that. I could see the big grin on your face as you typed that and I'm sitting here laughing my butt off. Your never going to change and neither am I.
To all RPDC Members,
That is why we are celebrating Memorial Day this weekend. A lot of people valued freedom above their life. And they sacrificed their lives so that we as a society could continue to disagree about the serious aspects of life. Say a prayer for all of our heroes this weekend. And don't forget to include the Emergency Response Personnel who put their lives on the line daily for all of us. I am talking about Police, Fire and Ambulance/EMT's. You would be amazed at the difficult and at times life threatening situations they encounter on a regular basis on our behalf. You only read about the ones that end with dire consequences. They face the prospect daily.
Happy Memorial Day.
Gregg.
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Ballrollers
1282 posts
May 24, 2008
6:30 PM
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Sid,
The core of my competition kit are 04 and 05 birds, with a few 06s, and 07s. I try to keep the young birds out of the 20-bird teams because they don't have sufficient flying experience to generate the simultaneous performance. They primarily serve as trigger birds. Every year, I pull four or five of the older birds out for the stock loft so the team will always consist mainly of three year olds. They are the most reckless in that first year, and the most stable after the second year. Hope this helps.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1283 posts
May 24, 2008
6:35 PM
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Guys
The argument I am hearing is that "WE need to protect the NEW GUYS from getting birds that don't perform to standard." There is nothing wrong with that idea, in fact, I support that statement. Then someone says if only the color bird guys would not call their birds Birmingham Rollers.... EVERY THING WOULD BE FINE. I kinda wish some of these guys that are selling pedigrees birds that don't perform as Birmingham Rollers would call them something else, too! LOL! It sure would have save me a lot of money! And that is a very common story......
Well, the facts of the matter are, that things would be no different, if that was the case. WE do have men selling PURE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS that don't perform to standard but they also have pedigrees back to the dark ages to confirm the birds are direct descendants from Jolly ol England. The peds may be bogus and the birds are trash. So how do we deal with that problem? Well, we suggest that the new guys educate themselves on who is flying and doing well with their birds. PERIOD! Truth is, there is trash in every family. It's up to the flyer to mine the veins of gold that are there in every family.
Hmmm So why are some of you so dead set against calling a performance roller, a TRUE Birmingham Roller, a roller that meets the performance standard suggested by the NBRC, just because 30-40-50 or 100 generations ago there was a cross that entered the gene pool. This True Birmingham Roller does perform, does meet every standard required by all major fly organizers and every roller club, I know of.
Why "PROTECT the NEW GUYS" from birds that do perform, have performed for decades, have been integrated into flyers families that have won national and international flys?
Oh Yeah, they got a mutt gene buried somewhere back in the past and we don't care how well it performs it can't be called a Birmingham Roller. It just can't WAA WAAA WAAAA
Hmmmmmm What do the new guys want? Do they need protecting or do they need good birds to start with? Do they need to be told what to do and how to do it or do they need mentoring? Do they need super pedigrees or super birds? Do they care if there was a cross back before they were born or do they care more if the birds perform to standard......... TODAY?
It makes absolutly no difference what family of birds you choose if: you go watch the family of birds perform, watch them several different times, have a good working relationship with the breeder so you can ask questions directly to the breeder, provide proper houseing, clean food and water, fly them out under supervision so you don't screw them up, and know what to look for. Then you will be breeding for True Birmingham Rollers.
Cliff
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SiDLoVE
242 posts
May 24, 2008
6:42 PM
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Thanks Cliff Ball
Looks like them birds are doing well for comp.Yours scores are up there with them birds as well. Keep up the Great work ... ****** God Bless
siDLove
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Gregg
311 posts
May 24, 2008
7:00 PM
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Cliff,
You just hit the high and salient points that this same argument boiled down to a few years back. Nice summary. As I said above, most need to quit worrying about what is pure. If they want to maintain it, fine. But they should be far more critical of the performance and quit worring about the pedigree.
The fact that there are more people maintaining color versus pure in this day and age is quiet testimony to the popularity of the colored True Birmingham Roller. This simple fact has been admitted by many of the big name roller breeders who travel extensively and have seen same.
What tends to torque my blood pressure in this type of debate is the assumption that just because I raise color birds that I don't care about high quality performance. Just the opposite is true and I know many who are in the same boat as I am and are fanatics for performance. I do select birds for the breeding pen accordingly.
Those project birds are also selected rigorously and have to show me improvement with every generation.
What I really want is that everyone who gets intensely involved in these discussions to to be able to walk away, when it is over, with the respect of the person with whom they were engaged. I posted Scott's and KGB's earlier messages from 2005 not only because I wanted to tweak them a bit, but also because there are some very true words spoken and wisdom shared in those posts.
Gregg Sale.
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Ballrollers
1284 posts
May 24, 2008
7:49 PM
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Gregg,
Here was William Pensom's take on breeding for esthetics rather than performance only in October 4, 1930 in Pigeons of England:
"We must admit that beauty upholds anything. I say breed for good looks as well as performers; it can be done. The rolling tendency, in my opinion, is too well transmitted into the breed to give cause for anxiety for introducing good looks as well...I feared I might spoil the performances of their offspring by trying to breed beauty, but my opinion has altered. It is easy to combine good looks with performance as it is to breed for performance only."
Looks like some of these guys can relax a little. If Pensom said it can be done, well, who's to argue the point?
LOL!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1285 posts
May 24, 2008
7:59 PM
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Pensom was also didn't hesitate to cross in other breeds; a consumate mongrelizer of the Birmingham Roller for his own purposes. In 1931, also in "Pigeons of England" he wrote:
"I have very little to do with Wests (West of England tumblers), but what I have been led to understand about them is that they are bred chiefly for long time, high flying. I have crossed Rollers with Wests and the result was vigorous flyers, but no rolling--they tumbled. I would be glad to know the true value of the West as a performer."
"Another correspondent wonders why I consider the Oriental to be "taboo". What I did mean was that these birds are not considered of sufficient merit to warrant further blood introduction by infusion with the Birmingham Roller, with the idea of improving performance.......if the Oriental Roller had been a superior performer to the BR, then there would not be any Birmingham Rollers.....and I am the only person that owns Orientals in the City of Birmingham, England, and district."
In 1945, he wrote in any article," I have heard it said that crosing the Birmingham with the Oriental brings about an improbement in the oerformance of the Birmingham. Without hesitation, I wish to impress the fanciers with the fact taht such is not the case....I experimented many years ago with a view t improving my
rollers by crossing with the Oriental. The result was, after three generations, a return to the Birmingham type with no improvement in the rolling propensities."
Interesting.......Surely,like Turner, he culled those outcrosses....or maybe just the ones that did not perform to the standard? So, do you guys in England, and we in the US, think we have to worry about having any West of England blood or Oriental blood in our rollers so recently, maybe even AFTER the color-gene outcrosses?.......You don't suppose he left any of that blood in the family in the ones that flew the height he was looking for and performed to his standard, do you? Naaaaawwwwwwww, couldn't be!
Hmmmmmmmmmm. Now, I am not quoting Pensom's work to justify or advocate breed out-crossing today....but "pure" breed....hehehehehehe.....I'm still looking for some kind of evidence, for you guys, but I'm not finding much, I'm sorry to say. Boy...talk about your perverbial turd(s) in the punch bowl!!!!!
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 24, 2008 9:58 PM
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Ballrollers
1286 posts
May 24, 2008
8:22 PM
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Hey Tony,
Regarding when the breed came to be named as such.....it was still up in the air in 1931, apparrently.
Pensom wrote, "Of actual performing pigeons, there are many varieties, but those which concern me most are the common flying Tumbler and the British Roller which are differentiated by their performance, or, perhaps a more familiar name is the Birmingham Roller till the NPA rightly stepped in and gave it what I think is the proper name, i.e. the British Roller. The difference in value of the two types is another point worthy of consideration. The breeding of Rollers till a strain is formed covers a period of years of careful study, while, on the other hand, a Tumbler can be bred from anything that can "tumble". I am in no way antagonistic to what I term Tumblers, for I have some of all sorts mself. There are some very clever performers among them, but their performances are overshadowed by the Rollers.
Seeing that H. Mitchell does not favour the name British High Flying Performing Tumbler and Roller, and that I am responsible for this suggestion, let me point out that ....the variety has never had a recognized name, and that the great majority of birds in Birmingham today do not answer to the description of a True Birmingham Roller. They are mostly known as Tumblers."
Then in 1934, in "The American Pigeon Keeper", Pensom was getting a handle on his performance standard:
"...I have no fear that we need seek further than this description......A Birmingham Roller can only be so termed from its performace in the air, and it is here where the difficulties of most fanciers lie, chiefly through an insufficient pursuit of the performance of such a bird, resulting in that most regrettable state of affairs of calling anything that performs, a "Birmingham Roller" whether it rolls or not."
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 24, 2008 8:56 PM
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Ballrollers
1287 posts
May 24, 2008
8:46 PM
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Speaking of throw-backs, guys, Pensom said, in 1932, about the history of Rollers:
"We learn from old literature of the various types of Rollers that exist in different parts of the world, but little mention is made of the Birmingham Roller. Some writers advance the theory that the Birmingham Roller was evolved from crosses, including the Oriental, Tippler, and the Cumulet. There is no doubt that the Oriental has played a big part in its construction, and evidence of this is displayed in the occaisional throw-backs which occur. At the present time it is up to the fanciers to further improve the interests of this game little pigeon where the old fanciers left off."
Interesting, again.......
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1288 posts
May 24, 2008
9:26 PM
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Some in the fancy seem to despise rollers that bump when they are landing, criticizing them as unstable. In 1936, in "The American Pigeon Keeper", Pensom appears to be more tolerant of it, saying:,
"Some Birmingham Rollers are very dangerous when coming in to drop and I always stand near the loft with the expectation of diverting any bird of this kind, whether by shouting, making a noise of some kind, or disturbing those on the loft at discretion. But strictly speaking, this is just a hopeless task and one in which we have to wait and see and trust to luck, but it is just as well to watch these kind for on may occasions I have helped a bird to get down without rolling to its destruction......any bird is apt to make mistakes and if I can find pleasure in helping a bird out of difficulties, why not?"
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Velo99
1788 posts
May 24, 2008
9:29 PM
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Cliff,
It was going on in 1927,the color debate that is.
I posted an excerpt from a magazine here a while back. They said the same thing said here. Breed for performance. Deviation from performnce based breeding will lessen the quality of the performance.
Others responded evidently in a nagative manner to these complusions directed by thier club. Ya know ssdd. Probably been going on since man domesticated the pigeon.
I would like to point out again that the NBRC objectives do compel its members to breed for performance.
yits
ps sign into messenger occasionally,we can further discuss the issues at hand.
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V99
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Last Edited by on May 24, 2008 9:30 PM
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Ballrollers
1289 posts
May 24, 2008
9:42 PM
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Concerning the True Birmingham Roller, Pensom said, "The True Birmingham Roller shows no separate movement between each revolution, but continues in an unbroken spin......and can only be so termed from its display in flight and if each movement is discernable then that bird can only b called a "tumbler"....On the other hand, should the performance be continuous but lacking in speed and tightness, the bird could be called a "Roller", but an imperfect one.......To qualify under the title of Birmingham Roller, the bird must comply with the standrd of excellence alloted to its performance. This standard we are all acquainted with by now. The bird is valued according to its standard the same way other livestock is valued from its respective standard.""
It seems that Pensom put little stock in blood lines, purity, family and background as some of you have claimed.....to Pensom, there is no such thing as a Birmighamn Roller that doesn't perform to his standard.
50 pages down.......200 more to go! I'll keep you posted!
Cliff
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fhtfire
1380 posts
May 25, 2008
6:48 AM
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Cliff,
In your last post about living up to a standard before it can be called a BR>...Again, the standard is what is set for the best birds...he is right in speaking...birds that do not live up to the standard...do not deserve to be called a B.R....but because it does not meet the standard...does not mean that it is not. It is all a figure of speech and chest pounding.....he is not saying that a stiff is not a B.R...he is saying it does not deserve to be called on..not good enough to pass on the name.....he said it is the same for any livestock.....that is true....only the best deserve to carry the name of a breed....to meet the standard......What you posted is not saying that it can be anything that rolls...as long as it meets the standard it can be called a B.R....again..reading to deep.....he is bragging about the B.R. and is just proving again..that he is concerned about breeding for anything else..or putting crap in the stock loft...MEET THE STANDARD and I will knight thee..Birmingham Roller.......does not mean that a stiff is not a BR..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
1789 posts
May 25, 2008
7:30 AM
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Which goes around to is it a breed?
According to the logic presented by Cliff, two birds,nestmates,we have all see one good one and one cull from the same nest. Is the good one a br and the other a tumbler? If you answer no the BR is a breed. If you answer yes you`re an idiot and have no concept of animal husbandry and should be banned from ever owning fertile birds.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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Last Edited by on May 25, 2008 7:32 AM
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Ballrollers
1290 posts
May 25, 2008
8:36 PM
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Paul
I have sent quotes from a book on Roller pigeons by WHP. I have a reason for my logic. If all you got is to say he did not mean what he wrote, you have a weak case. I am not saying every thing in the book is right or wrong, I am saying, it gives me a footing to base an opinion on, based on my understanding of what I read. If you feel he meant something else, fine! But please show me the basis of your opinion as it is written by WHP. I can be persuaded to weigh your evidence if you can present it.
What I see over and over, is opinions based on another man's opinion without any written documentation, any factual evidence, nothing but hot air!
Hey! Experience is fine to base your opinion on, but "experiences" differ so opinions differ. If 99% learned from books, don't you think that reading books is a good source of the truth and knowledge? If our experiences do not match what is written, should we burn all books or reevaluate our experiences? OR did we place too much weight on the "experiences " someone else told us about?
I am not telling anyone what to believe. I am telling all that this is what I have read about the master's experience with Rollers....and everyone should base their opinions about today's Roller families accordingly. That's all....
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1291 posts
May 25, 2008
8:43 PM
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Tony
The Birmingham Roller Pigeon by WHP 1945 P. 6
"The range of colors and markings is great and UNLIMITED. Indeed, practically every known color may be had in varying degrees. In many cases the markings are not far removed from the high standard achieved by the Long Faced tumbler, which is bred exclusively for exhibition."
Anybody got the historical markings of the Long Faced Tumblers on hand?
What color modifiers had been identified in 1945? Indigo? You betcha! Reduced? OPAL? Pencil? Toy Stencil? Do you guys even want to know?
What I am seeing here, is that for several decades from 1900-1945, there was a lot of breed outcrossing being done with the Birmingham Roller. Some guys, like Pensom, were crossing them to improve their performance, and some for color and appearance....and nowhere do we see any references to the purity of the breed, as a standard or in any other vein....I think those guys knew better.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 26, 2008 8:36 AM
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ezeedad
572 posts
May 26, 2008
1:20 AM
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Cliff,
Thanks a lot for all your research. I agree that performance comes first and foremost. I also think that Pensom's example helps us learn how the breed was produced until as recently as the 1930s. Very informative stuff...
Keep up the Good Work,
Gomez
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Alan Bliven
394 posts
May 26, 2008
12:03 PM
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Wow! Well done Cliff! Common sense rules over Roller bigotry!
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Alan
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Scott
653 posts
May 26, 2008
1:10 PM
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There is sure is a whole lot of reading between the lines here on a few hand chosen paragraghs that don't show the context of the message, and now the Mutt breeders are have it all figured out.
Cliff obviously pulled this stuff out of the collective writings, and then somehow tries to tie in mongrels into it where they were a non issue or even part of the writings,go figure.
This is it in a nutshell and was bypassed:
The Birmingham Roller And Its Adaptions To Spinning 1956
WHP
(I have no time for big or little crossbreds.)
Pretty cut and dry without reading between the lines.
PS Paul , we saw that artical on you in the new Roller Mag. That one bird,Qualmond I guess with the muffs was interesting, we were kind of baffled by it's appearance and the muffs and color had nothing to do with it,but it does explain your position on this subject.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 26, 2008 6:17 PM
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ezeedad
573 posts
May 26, 2008
4:22 PM
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Scott,
I suppose you're right.. I clearly have a more inclusive view of the breed that you do. However, I agree that crossing into the breed will destroy most of the work that has been done to bring the birds to a high level of performance. I even think that there is far too much cross breeding within the breed.
The last outside blood I brought into my bloodline was a bird I started using in 1980. I think that Kenny Billings and yourself..(you did get yours from him..??)..have some of the most tightly bred birds out there. You both are good examples of how to perfect a strain.. and to keep the blood running tight and straight.
I think that some of the old master breeders who perfected the breed bred their birds much the same as you breed yours. But I also feel that I breed my birds much the same as you do... only I am dealing with a couple traits that make my strain kind of unique... But that was my goal all along..
You may not want to call my birds Birmingham Rollers, and that's fine with me... but I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Gomez
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Ballrollers
1296 posts
May 26, 2008
5:46 PM
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Paul G
The main color/factor found in the Short Faced Tumbler is ALMOND.
The Qualmond factor was first identified by J. Quinn while he was studying Rollers. If a Qualmond roller performs to standard.. IT IS A TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1297 posts
May 26, 2008
5:49 PM
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Alan
Common sense is not shared by all. Bigots are found frequently, they only rule if the majority allows them.
Opinions are just that and should not be misconstrued as fact, till the facts are introduced. Then the facts must be weighed along with ones experiences, logic and wisdom. Only then can we arrive at educated conclusion. WE are a collecting facts in our search for knowledge. Each of us must weigh the facts as we read them and arrive at our own conclusions.
Those that have their minds made up will not change, even if facts do not agree with their understanding or their opinion. For men to benefit from an exchange of opinions, facts must be discussed and an open mind is necessary. Without an open mind these discussions are an exercise in futility. But for those who wish to base their opinion on something more....... The mystery is NOT solved but some questions now have a basis for multiple answers depending on your level of understanding.
Cliff
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ezeedad
574 posts
May 26, 2008
6:17 PM
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Cliff,
Don't misunderstand me. My birds perform to a high standard.. and I have learned most of what I've learned from Bill Pensom's book and the birds that I acquired from him. There has never been any question in my mind as to what breed I have spent most of my life working on.
In fact, I think that those of us who feel free to experiment and show creativity in our breeding and selections are following a tradition in rollers that has been forgotten.
The single minded, one type of performance only, pedigree validated, monochromatic, cookie cutter approach is far different from the way the breed was created in the first place.
I raise Birmingham Rollers,.... Period..!!!
Gomez
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George R.
726 posts
May 26, 2008
6:48 PM
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Scott what magazine ??
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Mongrel Lofts
564 posts
May 27, 2008
6:32 AM
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Cliff,
So if a Oriental roller, a Vienna tumbler or any other breed of tumbler rolls true, fast and straight. It is no longer of its breed but is now a Birmingham roller by your way of thinking? I have seen both the above roll well.
You've twisted and spun the truth using a great man in this sport. You should be proud!
Cliff, If you have a pair of nest mates, Birmingham rollers.. One a great spinner and one a tumbler or stiff.. You stock the stiff and he breeds many great true spinning rollers.. Is he a Birmingham roller now, or just a bird that produce's Birmingham rollers.. You have this topic and poor new guys all twisted up.. Sad thing is, many are like mice and follow the pied piper of the Mongrel Cliff's!! You have taken the writings about how the Birmingham was being created and the experments of young men and twisted them to justify Mongrelizing the breed today. Shame on you Cliff..
Take a look in Pensom's book and his writings. Look at all the birds in that book.. They are a collection of what Pensom considered Birmingham rollers from lofts all over the country.. Do you see any toy stencil, pencil, milky, or any other rare colors? Of course not!!! You do see a cream bar hen because dilute has always been in the Birmingham roller. I have a list of all the birds imported to this country by Pensom in a hard back 1968 roller journal.. You will find no rare colors in any of the imports,, Not a one!! No more to say Cliff.. KGB
Last Edited by on May 27, 2008 9:22 AM
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fhtfire
1381 posts
May 27, 2008
8:21 AM
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Cliff,
You are putting up quotes from the great WPH..but you are only putting parts of sentences up....You only get the true intent by reading the whole passage, page or chapter....I mean come on..you can take one sentence out of our great holy bible and unless you have the whole passage...you could twist a sentence up any way you want.....you take a deposition...same thing..you have to read the whole thing..to get a feeling on what it is about....when Pensom says that a BR that does not roll is purely a tumbler...he is not saying ...that bird all of a sudden changes breeds...he is just stating it does not live up to the standard..so it is a mere tumbler....(becuase that is what it is doing)....We call Motocross bikes that are rode hard a roach.....that does not mean the bike turned into a bug...LOL....I mean..my birds were flying so fast...that someone said they are nothing but racing pigeons...based on what they were doing...but they did not switch breeds....lol
Same goes with the color....You can have a roller in any color he states....I doubt very seriously he meant....take a non roller and make a color..he meant...that it has a wide variety of colors....and they do.....so...for an educated man......I am surprised that you read the WHP book the way you do....I always read a paragraph or chapter to get the true point...not one sentence at a time...
you CAN"T change an animal from one breed to another based on a standard...and you can't remove an animal from a breed because it does not meet the standard...and you can't call it something else because it does not meet the standard....it is what it is based on the relative....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Shaun
612 posts
May 27, 2008
9:43 AM
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Absolutely, Paul. I also recall a piece used by Cliff and others; it was Pensom's reference to having gaily coloured rollers, or something along those lines. That was very much a selective extract, in that they failed to include the other bit in the book where Pensom mentioned the big no-no of following colour over performance.
Shaun
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J_Star
1589 posts
May 27, 2008
10:12 AM
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With all due respect, why don't you gentlemen include text or phrases to support your argument than to discredit a man of using text out of books and claiming that it is out of contexts because you have nothing to support your rebottle!! Let us be fair and don't start sounding like whining now...Come up with good supportive arguments. Otherwise, end this none sense debate because it is no longer after 6 pages considered a debate...rather it is soberness.
I have stayed out of this debate but continue to read. Your claims start to sound like whining without supportive documentation. If you expect Cliff to type up the whole chapter for you to get his point across, then you guys start to show you are running out of ammunition. Believe me. Thanks.
Jay
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Ballrollers
1298 posts
May 27, 2008
10:41 AM
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Thank you, Jay. good to hear from you! Nothing was pulled from context. Pulling from context is an intentional extraction of a small portion of paragraph to change the meaning. In most cases I have included all relevant material to the subject at hand, without including a pages of irrelvant material. I know that the truth is painful for these guys and their purist agenda....realizing that while some guys were breed outcrossing for color...Pensom was breed outcrossing for performancd....but a mutt's a mutt! I will grant you that he changes his mind later on in his life and realizes that breed outcrossing is not the way to go, as most all of us feel today. But you cannot damn what men did for color, when Pensom also did, even though for performance.....and, in my opinion, it discounts any claims by anyone that they have a "pure" breed of Birmingham Roller at the omission of other families of Birmingham Rollers. As everyone is recognizing...where are the references to support their point of view???? The more they attack someone for merely posting refernce material...the less credible their point of view becomes to any logical mind.
Cliff
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Mongrel Lofts
565 posts
May 27, 2008
10:41 AM
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Jay,
Most of us work for a living.. We don't have time to sit down and rewrite text from books.. I wish I had all day to sit here and defend the Birmingham roller as a breed. I don't! Mongrel color breeding is todays dual purpose from the past breeding.. Every generation has to defend the Breed Birmingham roller against being mongrelized and ruined. I just hope their are enough good men out there to do the job in our generation.. KGB
Last Edited by on May 27, 2008 10:43 AM
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J_Star
1590 posts
May 27, 2008
11:30 AM
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KGB, How are you! Yes most of us work hard for a living and most of us put in allot of honest hours at work for living. But with all fairness, a debater should have all his ducks in order to be able to debate successfully and intelligently. To start discredit people for their debating tactics because the opposition is not prepared is shameful because the debate start to sound more of arguing sameo sameo to no end. If the debater is not up the challenge, then he should stay out of the debate. Don’t you think!! I am trying to point things out from a reader prospective. That is all.
Jay
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Ballrollers
1300 posts
May 27, 2008
11:49 AM
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Paul F
Write the quotes that support your opinions. I gave a whole lot more that Scott did. I tried to give book and page so each could go read it for themselves, so each man could draw his own conclusions.
I will try to be more accurate with hthe source of every quote and where it can be found, in the future. I have nothing to hide and I welcome your insight after reading them.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1301 posts
May 27, 2008
11:56 AM
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Paul,
You also bring up an interesting comparison between WHP's writings and the Good Book. And like the Bible, we do not all interpret the same passage, the same way. In Fact, dedicated, highly educated scholars often do not always agree on what a passage means, makes no difference if you read only the passage, the whole chapter or the whole book. You must make those decisions yourself. MOst of what I have presented is not an interpretation issue, however. When he says. "I outcrossed a BR to a WOE and they didn't roll....and had them back to BR in three generations," How else do you interpret that? LOL!
Good point, though!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1302 posts
May 27, 2008
12:04 PM
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Shaun
Have you ever seen where I wrote anything that indicates I advocate breeding for color? EVER? Performance FIRST SECOND AND THIRD is what I look for in any bird, of ANY COLOR.
Look, I cannot print the whole book on this list. Tony may have a few copies for sale. I would suggest each man read everything pertaining to these birds, he can and make up your own mind and come to your own conclusions and then we can have opinions based on knowledge. I have read many, many volumes onthe BR, personally. Or we can sit here and take someone else's word for it, let someone else tell us what "HE" thinks we need to know.
I happen to agree with Pensom that following color over performance is not the way to go. What ever gave you the idea, I didn't? Pensom knew some men would enjoy a colorful roller. He made reference to that on more than one occasion. I brought it up because rollerman challenged me that rollermen in the past were strictly committed to performance. I too enjoy colorful rollers. Smile! I challenge any man's claim to have the only "pure" BR and I defend any man's right to compete with any family of British High Flying Tumblers and Rollers or the American version of same! LOL!
Cliff
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ezeedad
575 posts
May 27, 2008
12:32 PM
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Cliff,
You have covered practically every facet of your side of this issue with good arguments as well as documentation. I've gained a deeper understanding of the history of our breed as result of your efforts.
Thanks, Paul Gomez
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Ballrollers
1303 posts
May 27, 2008
12:55 PM
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KGB
I will go you one better, why don't we find away to accept our differences, like the NBRC, WC and every other club does? I care enough about these birds to post to these color discussions just like you do. We have a difference of opinion on a few issues, but we agree on one thing......performance. Performance would probably be a much better topic for discussion. But If you wish to keep beating this poor ol nag of a hoofed creature, be my guest. I'm always here for ya! LOL! But you are wrong about you being any more interested is preserving the breed, than I am. If we breed for performance, the Birmingham roller will be preserved for perpetuity.
The guys who bought and sold "pure" families of British High Flying Rollers and Tumblers are the ones who did nothing to preserve the True Birmingham Roller. Many of those guys have been in rollers for 20 or 30 years and still can't field a competitive kit. Yet those men are still stuck on their "pedigree" birds. A guy like me comes out of backyard flying looking for a family worth competing with; does the due diligence in researching families and trying to get good breeding stock, ends up selecting a family (James Turner's) based on performance; then in a few short years, finds himself competitive in one of the toughest regions around. If I can do it...anybody can....Now you tell me...which of these scenarios is preserving the True Birmingham Roller?
Cliff
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Shaun
614 posts
May 27, 2008
1:42 PM
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Cliff, what I wrote wasn't about your choice of rollers or how you breed them. It was some time ago and perhaps I shouldn't have raised the issue. It was just that I was nodding to myself when Paul mentioned about selective extracts from Pensom's writings. Anyhow, on this forum, during one of ye olde colour debates, you said something along the lines of Pensom himself advocating filling one's loft with gaily coloured birds. I had just read his book and remembered that he had added to that very comment with words to the effect that following colour, however, over performance, was a road to nowhere. So, my point was that it's easy to take one piece of Pensom's writings in isolation to support an argument. Trouble is, there's often another comment of his just over the page to add to what he said earlier, thus negating the worth of the selective extract.
To give you a bit more info on what the UK is about, Cliff, I see you mention purebred BRs and pedigrees, generally in a dismissive way, given your views as to the whole purist approach to rollers. Well, you know, this sort of stuff just isn't a big part of UK rollers. I bought my birds from George Mason and neither he nor I particularly discussed their lineage. He said that he could trace my kit of youngsters way back, but he agreed that most people didn't care. Even his own advice to people starting out is simply to find a flyer who is doing well, get some birds from him, breed from them, fly them, find your own foundation birds, then away you go.
The reason for George's advice is based on the fact that nearly all the roller guys in the UK, have birds whose roots go back to the same stock. As I've mentioned, this is predominantly from an era around the 1950s and 60s. Before that, well, there isn't really much collective interest. The good side to this is that anyone who wants to get into rollers can go to any decent UK flyer and get stock which will look and perform much as it did around the time of Pensom's book. And, as Paul says, the birds look the same as they do in that book. So, pushing pedigrees and purebreds isn't a main feature of UK rollers.
Sure, if someone strikes gold and breeds a great roller which goes on to breed a higher than average percentage of good rollers itself (preferably with any mate), then people will want the offspring of that particular bird, and will remember the ring number and will enjoy discussing the lineage. But that's the exception to the rule.
I suppose I wouldn't like you to get the idea that there are committees of roller guys who spend their time authenticating backgrounds and pedigrees; this sort of stuff seems to be a feature of roller marketing in the US, which we don't have. We just ring up the guy concerned and have a chat with him. So, Mason rollers come directly from Mason and he'll answer any questions you might have.
Anyway, Cliff, it's just to illustrate how different things are over here.
Shaun
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2555 posts
May 27, 2008
2:00 PM
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Hey All, just to let anyone know that wants to contribute to this thread they should do so and provide any documentation and references and do it sooner rather than later.
Once everyone has given their best effort, I plan to lock the thread and go through the information provided along with any supporting materials I might have or can acquire and develop a position statement that will become the "official position and policy" of RPDC on this issue.
I will approach the topic and information provided with the most open mind I can and should I need clarification of something posted, I will contact the poster myself.
While whatever I come up with will not make everyone happy, reasonable thinking men and those that want to move past this issue, I hope, will appreciate the effort being made to settle the issue once and for all on THIS site.
We need to bridge the differences that divide us, to whatever extent we can on THIS site, and it is going to take both sides giving and taking a little to arrive at a position that honors and respects the breed while recognizing its varied path thought years taken by our brothers in the fancy.
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I believe that settling this here and at this time, will allow us to consider how we might begin focusing the energy from topics such as “preserving” the breed to perhaps “saving” the breed from those forces out there that would like nothing more than to demonize any of us who raises rollers or even to take them away entirely.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Ballrollers
1305 posts
May 27, 2008
2:20 PM
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Shaun
My point is not so much to make a list of quotes, as it is, to encourage the men to read the books, every book they can lay their hands on and decide for themselves, what is or is not, a bird worthy of being called a Birmingham Roller. I see too many guys who just fall in line behind somebody's point of view without thinking for themselves and checking it out. I agree that the writings of WHP are best understood in their entirety. But the kicker is, that each man's understanding will become clearer based on his experience with these birds. As a novice breeder, I got very little from his book but after a few breeding seasons, things start to make more sense.
Thank you for that insight as to how the English fancy differs from ours. I especially liked what you said,
"Well, you know, this sort of stuff just isn't a big part of UK rollers. I bought my birds from George Mason and neither he nor I particularly discussed their lineage. He said that he could trace my kit of youngsters way back, but he agreed that most people didn't care. Even his own advice to people starting out is simply to find a flyer who is doing well, get some birds from him, breed from them, fly them, find your own foundation birds, then away you go."
If the more of the purist guys had that attitude, this problem would not exist. Keep an eye on things. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, it is one of those guys who starts it all in an attempt to publically ridicule some roller guy or his birds of color.....and ususally without any experience breeding, handling, training, or flying them. It appears that you guys have already figured out that such behavior doesn't make any sense and does nothing to promote the fancy.
My response is always in the vein of defending any man's right to fly and compete with these birds, and I will always be right here to fly in the face of such arrogance and bigotry that rears its ugly head from time to time.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 27, 2008 2:29 PM
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Oldfart
685 posts
May 27, 2008
2:47 PM
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Tony, could it be that a maby should be added to the description of this post?
Thom ;-)
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ezeedad
576 posts
May 27, 2008
4:08 PM
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Thom..(I wanted to call you fart,,,lol..),
Looks like Tony took your idea,and added maybe to the thread.
But Tony, that may sort of undermine your effort to make a definitive policy regarding this subject..
It may also put you squarely in the crosshairs of the issue..
Paul G
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Velo99
1795 posts
May 27, 2008
5:13 PM
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Cliff,
Are you now the self proclaimed savior of the BR? That has to be about the most arrogant thing I have ever seen posted on any forum,from an officer of a national organization no less. Hilary must be rubbing off.
Still wonder why I let my membership lapse? You never did respond to my inquiries and comments I left on your messenger. I tried to go private but you didnt rise to the occasion, evidently the audience want large enough.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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fhtfire
1382 posts
May 27, 2008
5:15 PM
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Jay,
I was talking about his quote...and I did not need to make a quote for a quote...I was not using a quote as a reference....I was talking about reading comprehension....understanding what you read when you read it.....nowhere does it say that color should be followed...instead of the roll...and he said they have lots of colors....yes I know....so why could we not leave well enough alone and love the colors that were there during his time.....again...read the whole chapter....hell my 9 year old could read it and tell me what Pensom meant.....and just like a previous post...he left his OWN CLUB..because of the breeding for the show pen..and the show roller..I think that there tells where he stood on crossing in other breeds...how often does a man leave a club that is named after him....put a twist on that one...
Hey ALAN>..put a sock in it!! you come in an throw a grenade and then leave.....not cool..LOL..hey..how is that almond doing that I sent you.
rock and ROLL
paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2558 posts
May 27, 2008
5:24 PM
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Yeah ezeedad, it could do that. However, I would hope both sides would see that the current state of affairs and how the issue is ruled by the 2 polar opposites, doesn't play well with the majority of roller fanciers in the middle and that someone or something needs to step in and say "enough is enough...work out a compromise and move on or be marginalized as extreme and unreasonable".
What's interesting to me is that I think, both sides have indicated that the Birmignham Roller pigeon IS a "breed".
Also, that certain well bred "non-birmingham" roller pigeons are capable of rolling to the same standard as set for the BR breed. Just that it is more difficult to maintain the same level of performance as these birds breed within the same colony.
Seems too that most have agreed that cross-breeding to "improve" the Birmingham Roller is not a reality.
That breeding to enhance color is to breed away from the standard set by the national organization. Not a good thing to do to maintain the integrity of the breed.
That the Birmingham Roller perhaps undergoes certain local changes (stock selections for type and performance) as preferred by the majority of flyers there. (USA - UK - SA - Nordic countries)
For all the disagreement, I think for the most part it revolves around semantics and what an original author meant by what he said, etc.
I think they (myself included) agree on more than they realize.
As individuals, I wonder which of us is qualified to be the final arbiter of truth in this matter?
However, as a group of reasonable and responsible men and women in various walks of life, I think we can all say that we have to decide once and for all, that we have to come to a consensus on the matter, and then put it to rest so that we can channel our love and passion for this unique acrobat of the sky into protecting it with same devotion from those entities and individuals who would desire to deprive us of our right to pursue happiness with our feathered friends.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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fhtfire
1383 posts
May 27, 2008
5:37 PM
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Jay,
Come on man...taking a quote out of a book does not say anything..that is not documentation saying that it is ok to cross another breed on a BR for color. I have yet to see any documentation stating otherwise...a lot is common sense and good animal husbandry...and if you are a breeder of a performance breed...to be the best breeder that you can be..you push toward the Standard and keep the breed pure and true....so the next generation of keepers can enjoy....plus you teach the next generation of fanciers to keep it real. The ones who breed for color need to look into the future...not the here and now.....by allowing this now.....and when all the old dead wood(old fanciers) are gone...the next generation of fanciers could ruin the whole breed....just to have a pretty color....it is a slap in the face to all the fanciers like Pensom who pushed so hard to put this little athlete on the map....and to take steps backwards is just that..a slap in the face....it does not matter if you bred the roll back in...you bred away from the STANDARD by crossing...plain and simple.....the ones with colorful lofts are quick to jump on the standard wagon to say that there toy stencil white bar lace whatever can roll with the best of them...and they are striving to meet the standard...well the standard was breached to get those pretty colors..plain and simple.
Ok back to the quotes.....quotes from one fancier saying that he crossed in this back in 1929...does not make that law...or say that everyone was doing it....and that his or her crossing in his or her back yard...has changed the BR in every loft...WRONG....but if we keep up these bad habits of poor animal husbandry...then we will ruin this breed in generations to come.....could you imagine if a large handful of breeders...started breeding labs with dalmations so a lab would have spots......it would be shot down in a texas minute...and never be accepted...quotes from here and there are nothing but smoke and mirror...becuase most of the quotes are being used out of context...this is common sense....I have so many friends...that raise champion rots, goats, Horses, sheep, pigs, beef,labs, visla(???), chickens, rabbits and the list goes on....and they too are blown away by ...one...people breeding another breed into a breed....and saying that it is ok....I have asked these individuals...just to make sure that I am not going crazy!!
and Jay...if he is going to quote a small passage and use it to his advantage..he better write the whole chapter to get the proper meaning...I have read the WP book numerous times.....and this is before I even knew about the great color debate...and when I started back into rollers.....I knew right off the bat to chase roll...not color....I got nothing else out of the book.....and that was with an open mind...and innocence..and I knew that there were lots of awesome colors in rollers...and never one time during the reading of the book did it ever cross my mind to cross with another breed.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1307 posts
May 27, 2008
5:46 PM
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Kenny H.
My Yahoo Messenger is all screwed up, so I don't use it anymore. I asked you to re-send it regular e-mail and never got a response. What's up?
Cliff
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fhtfire
1384 posts
May 27, 2008
5:57 PM
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Tony,
That was a good post man.....you are right...we agree on most...that is why I am wondering why Cliff is digging in!..We all agree that crossing is bad...we all agree that you chase the roll, we all agree the the BR is a breed...so why keep digging in. I honestly believe that if you had a little color in your loft and you followed the roll and nothing els....in a matter of time..the pretty colors would be a thing of the past and burried so deep in the gentetics chain...just like top notches and grouse legs..that they will pop up..few and far in between.
Cliff..you have said in one of your posts..."Where did I say I agree with crossing".....then what is the problem.....
Second...I find it funny that some use the word purist as a bad thing...being a purist is about as good as it gets.....it is like we are being compared to Nazis..or KKK...that we are ratical purists......we are purists..trying to keep a breed pure...not saying one is better then the other....this is the first time in all my years of raising champion livestock...that the word purist is a bad word..or used as a bad thing.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 27, 2008 5:58 PM
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Scott
663 posts
May 27, 2008
6:26 PM
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"I will always be right here to fly in the face of such arrogance and bigotry that rears its ugly head from time to time.
Cliff "
You stole that line from Daffy Duck didn't you ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1260 posts
May 27, 2008
6:43 PM
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Paul F.I think you better do your research a little better on why Pensom left his own club.
He violated the rules by importing Red Badges for competition and was told that he was no exception to the rules.He then handed in his resigination.
Pensom himself had kicked someone else out of the club for doing something else.
I have all the documented letters from various folks on this but don't have them handy.David
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