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Mystery Solved: Color Debate Is Over?...Maybe...
Mystery Solved: Color Debate Is Over?...Maybe...
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Ballrollers
1253 posts
May 20, 2008
6:06 AM
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Tony,
So now, as the history of these breeds comes to light, you are sufficiently moved to accept many factors not found in the Pensom imports, as "honest to goodness", Birmingham Roller colors. I have long conjectured that the small sampling of factors Pensom brought in, were not ALL the factors found in the rollers, nor was the knowledge of the genetics and identification of colors and modifiers to the point where the average roller man could use them day to day in their lofts. Heck, they are still finding them....hickory.....sandy....these are not the result of breed outcrosses, but the result of genetics and test-breedings to identify the factors. Those that persist in their ignorance of the history of the breed and genetics will continue to pound their chests and say, "No way!" The rest of us know the real truth. That was a classic line that you used,
"Reason and thinking requires effort and the risk of being wrong or run the risk of finding out that what you thought you knew is not true after all. Thinking is not for everyone, but I highly recommend it." Wow! You said it all right there, my friend!
Now, as of what specific date, can we say that all these Dutch Tumblers / West of Englands / Birgmingham Rollers were doucumented as to all the genetic factors they possess? I am speaking of Dom Opal, Reduced, Toy Stencil, Brown, Barless, etc. Now we begin to see the problem with drawing a line in the sand with this "purity" issue.
Still trying to connect all the dots here....
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 6:08 AM
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Ballrollers
1254 posts
May 20, 2008
6:17 AM
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Paul
If you connect the dots as some have suggested, many of the rare factors appear to have been in the Tumblers and Oriental Rollers before the Birmingham roller was developed from them. Therefore, there may have been no breed out crossing to start with and possibly those rare factors were only reintroduced into the BR from the Tumblers which started with them. (I'm not talking about what a few guys may do on the fringes of the hobby that has little impact on the mainstream of the birds.) The sampling of birds imported was so small and the factors so rare, many factors may not have made it to the US. The English Birmingham Roller fancy is not a color-happy bunch. They may have the same feelings as some over here. See something out of the ordinary... Cull it quick! Gotta maintain that image of "purity" lest your birds come under the scrutiny and criticsm of the pigeon police! LOL!
What ever happened, I am glad the Mystery is solved...... for some....
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1255 posts
May 20, 2008
8:02 AM
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Tony
I follow your train of thought, here, and I think it is positive way to address this issue. The problem, as I see it, is that the ignorance factor is wide spread and does not respond to knowledge and references. This dislike of rare colors is more of an emotional knee-jerk reaction and is not based on logical understanding, as with the article posted. (As you can tell from the "colorful language" used to describe a rare phenotype.) NOTHING you or I say; NOTHING will ever convince ALL roller men that the rare colored rollers are TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS.
You say, you have seen the light, but you are still flexible in your thinking. Many men do not have that option, their opinions are set in stone and nothing will change that.
So in order to move forward, we must accept this fact that some men will never change their minds about this color issue. We don't ALL have to believe the same way on every issue to enjoy the roller fancy. We do need a certain degree of tolerance displayed from time to time on the part of everyone in the sport, however.
Thank you for that interesting article and thread. Just do not expect miracles. May I suggest you post all this information in the reading room so others may go educate themselves as to the different historical references available, so everyone may reach their own conclusions.
Cliff
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ezeedad
554 posts
May 20, 2008
9:29 AM
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George R,
I missed your post... Just saw it this morning... It was such a misrepresentation of what I said, as well as a misunderstanding of the basic process that all roller breeders should know, that I have to answer.
"Paul
and the point is ? (a) It's ok to cross breed for Color."
I never said that George... reread till you get it..
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"(b) The Birmingham Roller was created by useing several breeds , so it's ok if you want to cross it with a Ice pigeon."
George, did you read the article? I just hear the SOS coming out of you... are you even talking about this issue?
...............OOOOOOOOO............
"Help me out here Paul what is the point of telling everyone something we already new (that all breeds were created by crossing breeds)"
That's KNEW George... And crossing is just the opposite of how breeds are made. Breeds are made by inbreeding. It is used to refine the genetic makeup. I suggest you read Pensom's chapter on inbreeding. I hope this helps.
Your Friend, Paul Gomez
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Ballrollers
1256 posts
May 20, 2008
12:42 PM
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The whole point of the references that have been presented and the discussion, in a nutshell, is that the BR evolved from many breeds...and that breed outcrossing has continued for both performance and color factors since the 1900s, and thus has a wide genetic diversity in its background. Therefore there is no basis for any criticism of a roller being a mongrel, based strictly on the color or type of feathering that it possesses....and there is no basis for anyone to call their particular strain or family as more "pure" than others.That doesn't mean that anyone is advocating the continuing practice of breed outcrossing, and it emphasizes that we need to be more vigilant than ever, that we not take our eye off performance as the key to sustaining the breed, as we know it, rather than depending on pedigree, color, or any man's notion of what family he "believes to be" the real deal. It's as simple as that.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 1:26 PM
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Scott
620 posts
May 20, 2008
1:20 PM
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Bull Hocky , they are frigging mongrels any way you shake it
Take two Toy Stencels and start inbreeding them and see what pops out.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Shaun
593 posts
May 20, 2008
1:30 PM
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Cliff, I have to take issue with this statement of yours: "The English Birmingham Roller fancy is not a color-happy bunch. They may have the same feelings as some over here. See something out of the ordinary... Cull it quick! Gotta maintain that image of "purity" lest your birds come under the scrutiny and criticsm of the pigeon police! LOL!"
************
I don't think some of you guys get UK rollers, nor do you have a feel for the many countries UK rollers have exported to in the past few decades. Firstly, from the history perspective, only real diehards would trawl back before Pensom's time to try and establish what went into the melting pot to bring about the Birmingham roller. Most people don't really care, as once the 1950s was reached, the trial and error was largely over and the fairly limited standard colours and patterns had been established - the same ones which exist today.
Because the UK had many fancy breeds, there was a clear divide between fanciers who sought performance and those who wanted show birds. There just wasn't the collective will to change the BR any further beyond the 1950s, as it had reached its performance pinnacle and there was nothing else to add. Nothing has changed since then, as the UK roller fraternity moved forward on that basis and has been happy to stick with what it perceives to be the same breed standard as that from over half a century ago.
Many of Pensom's peers supplied roller stock to fanciers in the UK, after Pensom took birds to the US. A number of those prolific UK roller men lived until the 1990s and their birds have been the foundation stock of many in the UK and outside. Ask any of these countries to show you pictures of their birds and you will see the same repetition of colour and pattern.
Cliff, as for the UK not being colour-happy, it wasn't and isn't a question of spotting odd colours then wiping them out, in case the pigeon police find out. Don't you get it? There has been no appetite for colour breeding. This is why the same basic colours and patterns are seen everywhere but the US. Do you really think that someone in South African or New Zealand, or Australia, or the many parts of Europe who have UK roller stock as their foundation, see odd colours cropping up, then cull the offending pigeons, so they hopefully don't reappear? Please give us a break and listen to what's being said. The colours you see some places in the US are not seen elsewhere. They may be part of your roller history, but they ain't part of ours.
From some of the posts here, it comes across that America is being more open about what went into the roller and that the rest of the world is in denial as to the large variation in colour. No way - those colours just don't exist outside of the US. The simple fact is that your roller history is different to ours.
Shaun
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Ballrollers
1257 posts
May 20, 2008
1:37 PM
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Scott,
Spoken just like a man who has never raised or flown a Toy Stencil and relying strictly on heresay! I have personally seen multiple generation of Toy Stencil inbreeding in a loft of one of the most experienced and brilliant genetics and performance breeders of True Performing Rollers that I know of......located about 30 miles from me. All I see are pretty colored True Birmigham Rollers. If I showed you black and white pictures or a sillouhette of thes birds, I seriously doubt you could identify them or tell them apart from any roller that does not contain the modifier.
"Reason and thinking requires effort and the risk of being wrong or run the risk of finding out that what you thought you knew is not true after all. Thinking is not for everyone, but I highly recommend it."
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2530 posts
May 20, 2008
1:38 PM
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Lest anyone forget:
The Birmingham Roller is a breed. A standard for that breed is a certain performance. Breeding toward the performance standard ensures the continuation of the breed.
1: Breed
2: Breed Standard
3: Breed Toward Standard Ensures The Breed
Any breeding: crossing or selection to develop "rare" colors is downgrading the breed and should be frowned upon by those with a desire to see the breed continue toward the standard.
To maintain the Birmingham Roller Breed, specimens kept for breeding should always represent the "best" of the fanciers efforts and not deviate from the standard.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2531 posts
May 20, 2008
2:03 PM
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Hey Shaun, I like your post. So you think a 1950's time frame would be a sort of cutoff date for what we now consider to be the Birmingham Roller?
So you think the Birmingham Roller did not finish its development until the 50's. So when was the quote we all use as standard for performance (The true Birmingham Roller which turns over with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball) first penned?
Do I not also understand that you are saying that the Pensom imports before the 50's were not the real deal due to the breed still being in development?
As the breed was developed in England, I think your collective opinion should be given weight as a benchmark for what "era" the Birmingham Roller development was completed. Thanks for your thoughts on this.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 2:04 PM
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Scott
621 posts
May 20, 2008
3:18 PM
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(have personally seen multiple generation of Toy Stencil inbreeding in a loft of one of the most experienced and brilliant genetics and performance breeders of True Performing Rollers that I know of......located about 30 miles from me.)
Well the problem is that I'm not that "brilliant" Cliff, gee he should be kicking ass with that kind of genetic "brilliance"!
I'm not sure it is even worth continuing forward any longer being up against such "brilliant" genetic color and performance breeders.
Now for reality and as for the inbreeding of Toy Stencil, I don't buy it, nor do I believe there are good ones of that color as you would have to breed too closely to the other breed to keep it,if a good one popped up it would be an absolute fluke out of many breed ,what breed did the did the Toy Stencel come out of Cliff ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 3:47 PM
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MILO
1016 posts
May 20, 2008
3:42 PM
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"Multiple generations of Toy Stencil"
Are you serious Cliff? How can you have that and "True Birmingham Roller" in the same paragraph? Can you type or say that with a straight face?
You seem pretty sharp, but when you say things like that, It makes it SO hard for me to take you seriously.
c
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George R.
707 posts
May 20, 2008
4:01 PM
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Paul
I already knew about linebreeding once the cross is made.
Anyway thanks for your explanation and I want to wish you the best of luck with your Birds .
Paul by the way do you still fly Birds ?
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rollerman132
295 posts
May 20, 2008
4:18 PM
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Tony
The name of this thread was very deceiving and should have been named a promptly. The article was self explanatory; it was the thread that gives the impression that this article in some way supported the views of those who would destroy the established breed. I’m not a mind reader, if your intensions were to show that the Birmingham was an established breed you should have said so. No where in the article did it say that color was a deciding factor in creation of the Birmingham roller. Duane
Cliff
If those exotic colors were established in the breed prior to them being exported,prove it!
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Ty Coleman
297 posts
May 20, 2008
4:32 PM
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Duanne, prove they were not. This is the point.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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ezeedad
557 posts
May 20, 2008
4:45 PM
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George,
I'm training some young birds right now...
Thanks, Paul
P.S. What ever happened to the 1220 muffs you were working on..??
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George R.
710 posts
May 20, 2008
4:55 PM
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good deal Paul good luck with them.....
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rollerman132
296 posts
May 20, 2008
5:03 PM
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In Pensom’s book he states the color of the tumblers which he suspects might have been used in the creation of the Birmingham roller, Toy Stencil wasn’t one of them.
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Ty Coleman
299 posts
May 20, 2008
5:06 PM
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" Suspects" dig deeper im not arguing the point i just would like to see the proof.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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rollerman132
297 posts
May 20, 2008
5:15 PM
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Paul
I hope theirs no hard feels between us, just putting my two cents in. They don’t have to be the same color as my birds to see them fly. Take care man and God bless. Duane
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rollerman132
298 posts
May 20, 2008
5:32 PM
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Ty
In 1887 James C Lyell Published a book called Fancy Pigeons, on chapter 25 he states the color(s) of the Birmingham roller,and Toy Stencil is still not one of them!
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 7:05 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
562 posts
May 20, 2008
5:54 PM
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Tony,
What a bunch of confusing BS.. You don't find toy stencil, Pencil, Milky, Andy's, Opals and other rare factors and patterns in the original European imports or the birds they keep.. More smoke and mirrors. Show me a toy stencil Birmingham roller in Ollie Harris loft or in the Pensom pictures of all his old stock.. They don't exist.. You can call whatever you like a Birmingham roller! Just don't expect anyone but the naive or dumb to believe any of it! PURE FAIRY TALE and an injustice to the new commer to our breed Birmingham roller.. This Crap never ends and it's a darn shame!!! KGB
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 11:02 PM
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dmitch
73 posts
May 20, 2008
6:03 PM
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What i see here is a U.S Roller and a U.K Roller
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ezeedad
558 posts
May 20, 2008
6:50 PM
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Duane,
No hard feelings of course... I think that we interpreted the intent of the thread differently..
Paul
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fhtfire
1360 posts
May 20, 2008
7:44 PM
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Tony,
I don't think because you cant DNA test them..they are not a breed...I am sure they do not have enough research on the bird to find a marker in the DNA to call it a Birmingham roller...it would be hard to do..and lots of money...I bet all they can do at this point with DNA...is say that it is a Pigeon and male or female..or something like that...I bet they could not DNA test lots of animals to see what breed they are...I mean..from what I have read you have to find the genetic markers that make a breed a breed....and that takes time...a large stock of animals to compare tooo....different Pools of animals and time....I bet you could not even DNA a racing homer....maybe to certain close relatives but that may be it...you know....
15 years ago..all they could do with DNA is say I am a human
...but it could not tell me that I was Irish and Cherokee indian..but for sure I was human....but what family of humans was unknown....get my point..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2532 posts
May 20, 2008
8:21 PM
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Well Kenny G, I can see why you're confused because your appear to be attributing things to me I never said (certain colors in your above post).
You don't have to agree with the article either but show the documentation that says the Karp article is incorrect. I mean, show me the documentation that prove the Birmingham Roller is not a breed.
Paul F, I still am of the opinion that the BR is a breed. Never said it wasn't. I have never changed my opinion one iota.
Seems a few go right into automatic attack mode when they read Birmingham Roller and color in the same sentence without taking the time to understand what is being said.
At this point, I am of the opinion that at the very latest, the BR was already a well established breed by 1930.
Whatever colors existed in the birds up to that point should be included. I will quote Wendall Levi's book "The Pigeon" Page 208 (233) Description - ...The colors of the Birmingham Roller, as might be expected (since the breed was selected for performance rather than uniformity of plumage), are considerably varied and nearly all colors occur. Dietz (1929, p. 23) enumerates selfs in blacks, reds, yellows, duns, whites, almonds, blues, and silvers. He also mentions white flights, white-tails, beards, badges, baldheads, saddles, and bell-necks...In addition to the above colors, Birmingham Rollers also occur in spangles, mottles (black and white), grizzles, checkers, duns, mealies, rosewings, and whitesides..."
Paul (rollerman), I can't help what others are posting, this is not bobbaknuckles so I usually leave posts up, even the ones I don't agree with and that might even criticize me! Imagine that?
This thread is for thinkers only, like Ty said, some are gonna have to dig a little deeper and quote and cite sources for their point to have much validity on this particular thread.
PS Rollerman, no hard feelings, this is what we do on RPDC, talk and talk and talk some more. Expressing opinions, facts and biases are allowed.
Everyone, say what you have to say with a smile on your face and drop the scowl and things will lighten up.
Now today was my 19th Wedding Anniversary and now I need to go take "care of a few things" before Joni gets mad at me. See you all tomorrow! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 8:32 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
563 posts
May 20, 2008
11:10 PM
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Hi Tony,
Sorry if what I said seamed like an attack on you personally. It's not so much your post, but the way guys use marking such as w/f and badge to confuse the new guy about color that erks me.. This topic of color is not really about color at all. It's about Factors and patterns that have been cross bred from other breeds into rollers here in the USA by a few for patterns and factor's. Then twisted to try and say it has been in rollers all along. They know it's not true and they even know many of the men who did the cross breeding. That don't stop them from telling the new guy, they just think anything that's not a blue bar is a color bird.. That's a shame Tony! That's all.. Sorry didn't mean to sound like an attack,, KGB
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Shaun
594 posts
May 20, 2008
11:59 PM
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Tony, the 1950s was the era when flying rollers really entered the mainstream in the UK. As you know, there was a concentration of flyers in and around the Midlands and Pensom used to acquire his stock from some of the best of them. The point I'm trying to make is that there isn't the collective energy within the UK to go deep into roller history to find out what made it and when it stopped being made. More and more people from the 1950s onwards got into rollers, liked what they saw and simply continued with what was already in place; there was no need to change.
However, it has to be acknowledged that at least one high-profile roller man (Ernie Stratford) tinkered by crossing the Parlor Roller with the existing BR. This is often cited by US colour-breeding guys as 'evidence' that the UK was still trying to improve the BR. However, Ernie's efforts were but a sideline which proved fruitless and he dumped the project. It was nothing more than experiment, but his fellow roller men enjoyed taking the piss out of him for it.
And, gentlemen, there's the crux of the issue. There were so many flyers in the UK (1950s and 60s) concentrated in an area of, say, 50 miles, that it was impossible to mess with the roller and it not be obvious. There was much peer pressure between the likes of Bill Barrett and Ollie Harris, who founded so many UK roller flyers' stock, that risking the breed with colour experiments was never going to happen. Let's call that voluntarily keeping one's house in order.
So, no, Tony, there is no recorded cut-off point, per se, as to when the BR in the UK was officially established; it was more a case of roller flying becoming increasingly popular from the 1950s, by which time Pensom's name and that of his peers, still in the UK, were well known. People wanted their stock to aim for the same high standard, but also the roller community was very tight. Anyone attempting cross-breeding would have been ridiculed.
Moving on a bit, through the 1970s and 80s, the likes of George Mason built on what was already there and his birds were heavily exported (there were others who exported as well). Right now, younger guys are carrying the torch with the same foundations, but most of them will neither know nor care at what point the roller became a BR and what its genetic make-up is.
What Pensom took over to the US, certainly in the 1950s, was representative of what the best UK roller flyers had at that time. Our rollers (and those which have since been exported) continue to look exactly the same). However, they don't look the same in some places in the US. Now, it's up to you guys to establish why, but if some of you feel that those unusual colours have long existed in the BR - including when they were brought into the US from the UK - then please enlighten us as to why they're not seen in our indigenous stock, nor those of the countries outside of the US, where they have been exported to for decades.
It's disingenuous of Cliff to suggest that the reason for the collective lack of unusual colour outside of the US, is because every time one crops up, it's hurriedly culled. It's simply because those colours were never there in the first place.
Shaun
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rollerman132
299 posts
May 21, 2008
2:30 AM
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Tony
No hard feelings,it was just a misunderstanding,God Bless and take care. P.S Good luck with this thread, your going to need it LOL.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1244 posts
May 21, 2008
4:18 AM
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Shaun.What you failed to enlighten us in your post about Ernie is that this project of crossing was over a 10 year period before producing a Champion.Now thats dedication and he must not have cared what his fellow fanciers was saying about him.
And if you think that Ernie was the only one in England that worked with crossing and different colors you better do some serious research.So many things are tried to be swept under the rug but there is still enough of us still alive that was from the 40s,50s and 60s.
But I agree it is widespread in the US.WHY?? Because the USA has always been on the cutting edge.Not afraid to try new things.It is called Progress.Either one joins it or be left behind.
They have a saying about us Fulton County,Pa. folk.They say we are 10 years behind everyone else in the state.Why? Because we never liked CHANGE.Now we are trying to catch up when it would have been easier to just go with the flow.LOL.
By the way I do not promote CROSSBREEDING to get any COLOR or FACTOR.I do breed for color with what I have in Rollers but it is always PERFORMANCE first.I will cull an Opal as quick as I will a Blue Check if it don't perform.And when I say perform I mean anything that is 10 foot or more.Anything else goes to the bird dog folks.
I found out several years ago I could enjoy both. David
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Ty Coleman
300 posts
May 21, 2008
4:33 AM
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{In 1887 James C Lyell Published a book called Fancy Pigeons, on chapter 25 he states the color(s) of the Birmingham roller,and Toy Stencil is still not one of them!}Duanne's post
{I don't think some of you guys get UK rollers, nor do you have a feel for the many countries UK rollers have exported to in the past few decades. Firstly, from the history perspective, only real diehards would trawl back before Pensom's time to try and establish what went into the melting pot to bring about the Birmingham roller. Most people don't really care, as once the 1950s was reached, the trial and error was largely over and the fairly limited standard colours and patterns had been established - the same ones which exist today.
Because the UK had many fancy breeds, there was a clear divide between fanciers who sought performance and those who wanted show birds. There just wasn't the collective will to change the BR any further beyond the 1950s, as it had reached its performance pinnacle and there was nothing else to add. Nothing has changed since then, as the UK roller fraternity moved forward on that basis and has been happy to stick with what it perceives to be the same breed standard as that from over half a century ago.}Shaun's post
Karp's article was written in 1930 see were im going with this.1887 1930 1950 evolution of a breed.It's according to were you personaly drew the line in the sand as to were you stand.However if you drew a line it was personal preference because there has been no orginzation that has done so.The colors in debate have been documinted in the 1920's 1930's and 1940's.Does this help antone?
I personaly think that many of you feel that the Pensom family is the only "pure" birmingham and this is were the problem lyes.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 4:56 AM
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Shaun
595 posts
May 21, 2008
6:14 AM
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David, there's no collective guilt or hand-wringing in the UK for anything to be swept under the rug. If there was any cross-breeding which unduly impacted upon the lofts of the founding roller guys from the 1950s onwards, then surely the results would pop up - not just in the UK, but in the other countries which have been exported to over the decades since.
Yes, there was bound to have been the odd experiment over half a century ago, and perhaps the odd champion was indeed produced from a mountain-load of dross. Such minor successes hardly prove your inference of crossing on a scale large enough for the whispers to have crossed the Atlantic. If you're right, where are the dubious colours now? - if they ever existed, they're clearly dead and buried along with the failed experiments.
As for the US being on the cutting edge, if only you could all agree that what you did to the Birmingham Roller was progress. Truth is, David, it's a bold statement, but all too many of your own countrymen are aghast at your idea of progress, when it comes to the BR.
Which brings me to Ty's point. This was raised by Cliff, if I recall, a couple of years ago. It's all about drawing the line in the sand (or not) at a specific point in roller history. Some maintain that the BR was never set in stone and that further 'progress' was there to be had. However, many others deemed the BR to be a finished product many moons ago, and continue to utterly reject the so-called 'cutting edge progress' which some claim to have made.
At the end of the day, which side of that line in the sand you stand, is what separates you guys in the US.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1245 posts
May 21, 2008
6:39 AM
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Shaun.You said:Truth is, David, it's a bold statement, but all too many of your own countrymen are aghast at your idea of progress, when it comes to the BR.
If this be True then why havn't they got off their butts and started something by way of Standards,Color,Performance etc.You find me enough fellows to support your statement and see how long they last without all the other BR breeders here in the US and I will even include the rest of the world.Some like to do the big talk about preserving the breed but they sure won't do anything about it.
Why because there is only a handful of breeders that cry FOUL and just from the very beginning of the Breed there never was any concern about color amongst the majority of the flyers.If it rolled according to the Standard of the BR everyone was happy.
We could debate this untill we are dead but I think Tony and Kenny connected the dots with documented proof that unless I see something else to convince me otherwise I will continue the path I have chosen.I thought I had an extensive collection of printed material but they showed me things I never knew.
You ought to connect with Graham Dexter.I think he is from England.
As someone else said everyone is going to do what they want to do so we all may as well enjoy each other and whatever rollers we enjoy.We should be more concerned on how we are going to survive the high cost of feeding and careing for our birds.No matter what the Breed or color. My opinion,David
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Shaun
596 posts
May 21, 2008
7:10 AM
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David, Graham Dexter gave me first hand information a few years ago about the way some of the US went compared to the UK. You most certainly can't use him to support any of your arguments. As things stand, the rest of the world probably wouldn't want to start something about preserving the breed, simply because they haven't done anything to jeopardise it in the first place.
Again, when you make statements like "there is only a handful of breeders who cry FOUL... there was never any concern about color amongst the majority of the flyers" - David, this can only be true of the US.
And this is the point: there are all too many sweeping statements which keep coming as if they apply to rollers around the world. If you just come to terms with US roller history being different to elsewhere, then there will be no cause for disagreement. What you do on your own side of the pond is none of our business, but I can't be the only one who gets tired of reading snide attempts to undermine UK roller history.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1246 posts
May 21, 2008
9:08 AM
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Shaun.Sorry if you think that I am making snide remarks about the UK.That is not my intention at all.Just stating what documented history I have collected about the rollers in the UK and the USA over the past 45 years.If you can't trace the UK history beyond the 1950's I say shame on you and anyone else that never bothered to preserve documented history. David
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fhtfire
1361 posts
May 21, 2008
9:46 AM
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Shaun,
He is wrong when he says it is only a handfull of breeders that cry foul. Most just dont say anything for the very reason that you stated...they are breeding strong and true and everyone else around them is too...so if it is not broke in there area...then why fix it....and trust me.."most" people have more going on in there lives that are far more important then toy stencil. The fact is...if people do not cross other breeds into the BR..we would not have this conversation.
Now saying Toy Stencil just popped up is a crock....the color breeding pioneers have ADMITTED to crossing and that is the only way some of those colors came about.....if you breed for performance...then color should not be an issue...
Dave..you say set a color standard....if you follow the standard in teh first place....wierd colors would not pop up...if you breed from the STANDARD...then another breed should never be used..because they do not meet the standard.....the standard takes care of the color issue if followed. So..shaun...most fliers in the US are on the same page as the UK...have fun in your backyard if you want....do some side projects .....but don't let your project out of your backyard....I mean...it is like what came first..the chicken or the egg....well...let me tell you..the "Performance Standard" came first and if followed the breed should keep moving forward....do not follow the standard FIRST and you get crap.
Shaun you are a breath of fresh air....it is nice to have a UK guy tell it how it is...it is like coming from the horses mouth.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1247 posts
May 21, 2008
10:23 AM
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Paul.I copied this from one of Tony's earlier post and it says it all in a nutshell.
"To maintain the Birmingham Roller Breed, specimens kept for breeding should always represent the "best" of the fanciers efforts and not deviate from the standard."
Read this several times and see if this is not as good as it can be said. David
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Shaun
597 posts
May 21, 2008
10:35 AM
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David, I daresay there are those who will have documented history going back to god knows when. I've been more inclined to talk to people like George Mason who has as good a knowledge of UK rollers as any living man. He acknowledged that back when he first started, there was the odd one who would try this with that, but he said it never amounted to anything.
George knows exactly who his rollers were founded from and who their rollers came from before that. I'm not sure how far back you want to go, David, but I would have thought if our rollers today look just the same as they did in the 1950s, that would give a pretty good indication that there hasn't been cross-breeding in over half a century. If you and others maintain that there was before that, and perhaps afterwards, then based on the assumption that such cross-breeding would have been intended to open up the roller colour palette, then where are these bonny birds many years later? All I see is the usual array of blues/blacks/reds with the standard patterns of balds/badges/saddles/oddsides/grizzles/mottles/spangles, etc.
If your history tells you otherwise, David, then point me in the direction of the resulting cross-breeding and what exactly I should be looking for which gives the game away. Your history and records might actually be correct in that certain projects might have been carried out way back when. But, if the intent was to bring extra colours to the roller, then where the hell are they?
Paul, I can't deny that when I got into rollers three years ago, the general consenus in the UK was that much of the US had pissed about with the imported rollers, so they were beyond recognition. It has taken a lot of writing on the part of many of you guys to stress that this is by no means the case. However, even now you can see there remain those who still feel the Birmingham Roller has no set standard and that it can and should be 'progressed' further.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1248 posts
May 21, 2008
10:52 AM
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Shaun.You said:I can't deny that when I got into rollers three years ago, the general consenus in the UK was that much of the US had pissed about with the imported rollers, so they were beyond recognition.
So if these same fellows that led you to believe this was wrong maybe they are not telling you the truth about anything else.Something to think about.LOL. David
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Shaun
598 posts
May 21, 2008
11:51 AM
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In your dreams, David. Repeat after me: "The UK has no skeletons in its cupboard - or at least no coloured ones."
Shaun
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Scott
622 posts
May 21, 2008
12:17 PM
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(But I agree it is widespread in the US.WHY?? Because the USA has always been on the cutting edge.Not afraid to try new things.It is called Progress.Either one joins it or be left behind.)
Cutting edge ? left behind? are you frigging kidding ? oh and lets not forget "brilliant" LOL LOL LOL LOL
Shaun, these guys aren't even worth your time , they are nobody and aren't to be taken serious.
Shaun the breed is still alive and unpolluted in most serious flyers lofts over here I can assure you.
As for them being wide spread,I guess that depends on your circle.
Having the crabs can be widespread also though in certain circles, but neither are wide spread in my circles, and I know most of the serious flyers in this country.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 3:32 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1249 posts
May 21, 2008
12:36 PM
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Shaun.This will be my last post on the subject.I am going to copy this from an interview with one of the UK Greats.
Ernie Stratford who was given the title "Exporter of the Century" in the 70s and 80s,
He said: "Everyone's got to experiment with pigeons.The wildest experiment that I've ever done is pairing parlour tumblers to rollers.Eventually I bred a champion.It took me 10 years and she was a red spangle,she did 57 rolls in 15 minutes and they were crackers and she never let up."
Now there is more but this is just an example of what one of UK's Greats did and Exported rollers all over the World.
Now this was crossbreeding at it's finest but what he said in his first sentence says it all.'Everyone's got to experiment with pigeons"
Now think about why such a Great man like Ernie Stratford was and ask yourself why he was crossbreeding in the late 80s when the UK already had the best there was to offer and the BR couldn't be improved upon.
I like his style of thinking outside the box.I am done.I will wait on the more educated fellows to bring more documented proof forward. David
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Scott
623 posts
May 21, 2008
12:47 PM
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(I like his style of thinking outside the box.I am done.I will wait on the more educated fellows to bring more documented proof forward. David )
The key word is "experment" and for what ? performance.
Color breeding is just the opposite, and so were the breeds used for such, hardly apples for apples , not even in the same book let alone the same page.
How is the W/C kit coming along Dave ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 12:48 PM
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Shaun
600 posts
May 21, 2008
12:56 PM
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David, you regularly pull Ernie Stratford out of the hat to seemingly demonstrate widespread cross-breeding. He was just one guy of the time, and if he were able to readily reproduce for export, four-times-a-minute rollers with good kitting and stability, the man would have died very rich indeed. I would say look a bit closer: ten years for one decent roller, resulting from an experiment. Yeah, that's the proof we were looking for!
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1250 posts
May 21, 2008
1:28 PM
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Scott.I have a kit ready but the last I heard we wern't flying.I always have a few kits ready for every fly just in case I get to fly.
They have a chance at winning the region but the World Finals.No way.LOL.Thanks for asking,David
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fhtfire
1363 posts
May 21, 2008
2:55 PM
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David,
Yes it is fine to experiment with pigeons...why..Darwin even used pigeons to test his theory of genetics and evolution...why..because they reproduce fast and you see the results in half the time of most animals.
I have no prob with experimenting...I have a prob when people let the experiments out of there back yard or make a dollar calling a bird a Birmingham roller when it is an obvious cross..
The name Brimingham Roller is a very STRONG name for a breed...meaning...everyone who knows pigeons...knows what a birmingham roller is....they are one of the most popular breeds. Even the new guys want rollers...why..they are fun to watch...but using the Strong name for sales on a cross is not cool...I am not saying you...I am saying whoever...
So...that quote abotu 10 years to get a champions....sign me up...lol lol ....oh my gosh..he had to breed for 10 years to get a good bird.....hell come to my loft of pures....Takes me one season to get some good birds together and I only breed about 60 birds a year....and as for Champions....few and far in between...but I get at least a couple a year..that I would consider nails..across the board.
And progression...moving the breed forward...how on gods great earth can one say that breeding a performance breed for a pretty paint job is progression...that is taking 20 steps back...progression is following the standard and only putting your best in the stock loft...and then proving them out...and then culling the birds that do not produce the goods.....that is progression.....keep the paint jobs for the show pen.....No...most Americans are arrogant and think they are above the rest...and it even shows in pigeons...to say that we are moving a breed forward by crossing....why fix something that ain't broken!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ty Coleman
301 posts
May 21, 2008
3:57 PM
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Shaun, these guys aren't even worth your time , they are nobody and aren't to be taken serious. Scott
Scott this is probably you at your worse. You have insulted many of your fellow rollermen in the hobby with this statement.And you should be corrected for it.This is not a way to conduct yourself in a debate or even overall life as far as i am concernd.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 3:58 PM
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Scott
626 posts
May 21, 2008
4:16 PM
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Ty,the fact is I like you, and I also like Dave, and I spoke too blunty,sorry for that,but honestly I don't take you guys seriously, to me this topic is not a debate as there is nothing to debate.
It is no secret where these so called rare colors came from, it never has been, in fact never heard the crossbreeding denied until this forum over the past few years,with you I think it is just being naive, with the others it is nothing more than trying to hide the truth.
And only from color breeders will you hear the breed denied for justification of such,it was never was in question before.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 4:19 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2535 posts
May 21, 2008
4:22 PM
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Hey Scott, I know you must not have had allot of sleep last night to say what you did...almost 2,000 people per day are watching the boards a little closer lately. That's up about 300 more than usual.
This specific thread has been the most popular page over this same period of this increase...
2,000 people per day are allot of nobodies...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Ty Coleman
302 posts
May 21, 2008
4:37 PM
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Scott im not going to deny that cross breeding has occured but i think you missed the whole point of this thread.The birmingham is a croosbreed and the earlier post by David stated it was done in the 70's and 80's in the uk. I dont know of anyone in the practice of cross breeding and was shocked it was being done in the 80's but it seemed to be ok with you as it was for performance.Here is what i will debate on this thread Reduced,Indigo"andys",Dominant opal,Grizzle,and Pencil"maggie"these are as far back as 1920,1930,1940 i can also see where these could have been added for performance-longer flying and stronger birds which would go along with Karps article about longer flying birds and you also see these colors with the WOE so this make sense to me.I can only go back to the 1950's with stencill so i guess i drew my line in a sense. As of the present there isnt any stencill in my loft and unless i see where it can improve the performance of my birds it want be there but i will never put anyone down for having it either nor will i put down a pedigree thumper its just not foor me.I have respect for all! Even you lol , I keep my eye in the sky.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 4:40 PM
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