birdman
574 posts
May 17, 2008
11:08 PM
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Tony, I recall BMC stating something similar on several occasions about the WOE and Birmingham being the closest of relatives. Maybe he was already aware of the connection by knowledge of the Karp article?
Good info in your post!
Russ
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kopetsa
677 posts
May 17, 2008
11:15 PM
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Interesting post!
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Andrew
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Spinncity
3 posts
May 18, 2008
2:47 AM
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I am not for or against the color argument as to me I cannot care either way. All I am interested in is how well do they roll.
I have one question, If all the above is true then why is it that only the fanciers in America are getting these un commen colors and permutations from their birds and no one else in the world does.
I have visited England 9 times in the past 10 years, been to N Ireland; Holland, Denmark, West coast of America and Canada and the only place I saw these colors and patterns were in America.
We in SA got all our birds from England in the mid sixties and we do not bread any of these so called 'color' birds.
If it is then true that the BR is related to the WOE then surely those colors should made their appearance in other countries as well.
Just a thought.
John Conradie
South Africa
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 2:49 AM
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Velo99
1750 posts
May 18, 2008
5:13 AM
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Spin,
Could you please be more specific? I see a lot of badges and and baldies in the english birds.
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V99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1236 posts
May 18, 2008
5:26 AM
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Thanks Tony and Kenny for connecting the dots.I must say I had never connected it the way you both did.I applaud your efforts for presenting it in a different light.
As for why America is the only place you see it.Every other place had Color Breeders in Reverse.Just kidding and couldn't resist.LOL. David
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Spinncity
4 posts
May 18, 2008
5:54 AM
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V99, If I understand the discussion correctly and the previous artical it says that the colors and patterns which we find in West Of England tumblers is in the BR as well, as the article claim the BR developed from the WoE.So we should find opal, kite,indigo and indalusian in our BR.
These patterns and colors are only making their appearences in the Birmingham Roller in America but not any where else in the world.
Surely the discussion is not about normal markings like BH or badges.
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Ty Coleman
284 posts
May 18, 2008
5:57 AM
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I think that why you see more birds of color in the U.S is because if we find a color we breed it in.I know Davids post was a joke but it,s the truth.Take the reduced gene,when it mutated if it had been culled it would have been lost,but it was put in to study and know we have this wonderful gene to play with.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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ducket
6 posts
May 18, 2008
6:18 AM
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Hej All,
Can anyone tell me where the West of England tumbler ( WESTS ) come from ?
The Birmingham Roller did not come out of West of England tumblers (WESTS), maybe yours did but mine did not,I am looking forward to someone who is going to tell me something about Wests, Mr Karp do`s not know and neither do all thoughs that believe in his artickle.
Eric Laidler, Denmark.
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Velo99
1752 posts
May 18, 2008
6:22 AM
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One thing I did notice during the study was the very few crosses were other performance breeds. The West and BR are probably one of the "cleanest" crosses to make a breed. Mainly flying breeds to remove the roll from the Tippler
What Tony posted was pretty much fact. I want to be the color man here.
Lets go back to about 1800. Soldiers and sailors were and had been bringing birds back to the UK from the Middle and Far East. The Old Dutch Tumbler and Oriental Roller were crossed to make a high flying tumbler with the main emphasis on high flying.
These fanciers lived with a small region and knew each other and thier birds pretty well. Geordie had been unemployed for sometime. He would find day work occasionally down at The Hall. He had traded his stock of birds to feed the family. He would hang about the other fanicers at the Gloomy Gus,the local bird pub,many of whom were a step away from Geordies predicament.
When his mate Colin flew his birds Geordie often watched with him and helped Colin track the birds. Colin had a young bird that was a mad tumbler. It would tumble for a pretty long distance. That checker bird always made Colin mad and he was threatening wring his neck. Geordie was just wating for Colin to pull the bird from the kit so he could get it from him and use it as a start for a new stud. Geordie secretly liked the tumbling.
The day finally came, Geordies plan came to fruitition and he got the checker cockbird. Now he needed a mate. He listened carefully and helped a lot of the other fanciers track bird as he kept his eyes and ears open looking for the opportunity to find a mate for the "tumbler".
If you repeat this scenario across the Black Country and Midlands up until about 1850, it is easy to see how the modern day tumbler got his start. Since the West,the BR and Tippler have an almost identical origins it is an easy assumption that our breed was a product of selective breeding from the ODT/FOR crosses. Guys trading birds back and forth to find the traits needed to improve thier studs without investing a lot of money. As time rolled forward the term roller was coined.
It was common knowledge among fanciers that a roller was a clean rolling tumbler with little or no tumbling in its performance. If the same bird happened to have a (good)bad day it was a tumbler. The performance was what defined the bird to the early fanciers. Tippler was an old time word for tumbler. Roller and tumbler are pretty much self explanatory.This is why in his writings that Pensom often refers to the bird being either roller or common tumbler.
Eventually the birds were named after the regions where they were developed to help differentiate the budding breeds. In my opinion in the early days roller was an acronym for cull.
It was all perspective.Fanciers traded til they got what they wanted. I find it very interesting that the pigeon community was close knit enough for these three breeds to emerge after this short of a time span.
Could we say this was mass selective breeding?
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V99
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Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 6:27 AM
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Shaun
584 posts
May 18, 2008
6:33 AM
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Our friend, Johnny, is being modest. What he hasn't mentioned (or if he did I missed it) is that he's one of the roller world's foremost judges. He probably knows more about UK birds than anyone outside of the UK and his point is very valid. We're not talking here about patterns, such as balds, but colours. Those which are under discussion here, don't exist outside of the US.
Most of the stock which the South Africans, Aussies, New Zealanders and much of Europe have been building to successfully compete against the rest of the world, originated from the likes of George Mason, Bob Brown and Ollie Harris, whose successes built up from the 1960s onwards. The UK had then, and still does have, West of England tumblers, but we do not have the colour variation which is seen within US rollers.
You could put this to the test any time you like: ask any roller man from the UK to post some pics of his stock and see just how few colours crop up.
Whilst there might indeed be a link between Wests and rollers in the US, I can't see how that applies to the rest of the world. I also recall asking Brian McCormack about his Wests and he acknowledged that those in the US were now different from those in the UK. So, when you discuss the possible crossing of Wests with rollers, again you have to be discussing Wests which were in the US at the time and not those elsewhere.
Shaun
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Velo99
1753 posts
May 18, 2008
6:44 AM
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Shaun,
I breed straight up for performance. The only "rare color" I have is andy. The rest are reds and blues.
I think the majority of flyers here have the same.
The rare colors might be like a pimple on your forehead they just attract more attention.
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V99
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ducket
7 posts
May 18, 2008
6:47 AM
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Hej velo99,
Can you tell me where the WEST originated, I know it came out of the hundreds of other tumblers found in England,at that time, but where in England ? I repeat Mr Karp do`s not know and neither do`s the rest of this forum ( hej Shaun I am also a Geordie, you might know where wests come from )the sad part about all this is that there is a lot of misinformation written on this forum and it is being misused by some fanciers to validate their breeding for colour or anything thing else that takes their fancy.
Eric Laidler, Denmark.
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katyroller
191 posts
May 18, 2008
6:48 AM
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This is a good post with good info.. I don't know that I buy the AC Karp article completely but alot of it did make sense.
Let's not sugar coat anything, the REAL goal for some has not been to educate but to see how obnoxious or confrontational they could be, PERIOD. I will continue to say that I personally don't agree with cross breeding for color and or unusual characteristics. If the next guy chooses to do so, that's his decision and I don't need to EDUCATE him. Come fly day if I am beat by a kit made up of mutts I will go back to my yard and fix what is broken, not attack the winner and his methods.
This is my last post on this subject, NEXT!
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Velo99
1754 posts
May 18, 2008
6:51 AM
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Eric,
From what I read and understand the main branch of tumblers came from the ODT and FOR.It originated in the Shefflield/Macclesfield area.
I would love to see some more documentation if you have anything available.
yits
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V99
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Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 6:53 AM
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Shaun
587 posts
May 18, 2008
6:59 AM
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I know that, Kenny; the vast majority of birds posted on here are straight up 'old school' rollers. However, when the debate takes on the ins and outs of unusual colours, that's when it should be stressed that it's the US's in-house roller history which is under discussion. The point Johnny made is that any correlation between Wests and rollers which has brought about 'unusual' colours, is strictly in the US. Those colours, however, they originated, are not seen elsewhere in Birmingham Rollers.
Given that people from all over the world read this forum, I think it's important that when certain conclusions are pronounced, that it's made clear that it doesn't necessarily apply to countries outside of the US.
Shaun
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Velo99
1755 posts
May 18, 2008
7:00 AM
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Trace,
I made some conjectures and assumptions. The Karp article does fill a lot of gaps. The colors posted on one of the links include all of the "approved?" BR colors. The other factors and modifiers are in almost all pigeons.
Lets stick to the meat and not get off on colors at this point please. I know you have some knowledge of the breed.
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V99
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Shaun
588 posts
May 18, 2008
7:04 AM
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Eric - another Geordie, eh - cool or what? I honestly know bugger-all about Wests. I do know there were areas of the UK which were big on tumblers, one of them being Wolverhampton, which had its own particular 'make' of tumbler, which you might come across.
Shaun
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Velo99
1756 posts
May 18, 2008
7:12 AM
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Shaun,
If the assumption that the West and Birmingham were named for their regions would it not be easy to make the leap that the Wolverhampton has the same blood as the West and the BR? These breeds are mainly a product of selective breeding rather than genetic makeup in my opinion
I still buy into the assumption the ODT and FOR are the founding breeds for a lot of the performing acrobatic breeds.
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V99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1238 posts
May 18, 2008
7:19 AM
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Shaun.Go back another 50 or 75 years before the 60's and see what Whittingham sent to America from Birmingham.Tells a whole completely different story than what is being seen in England now.All I am saying on the subject.David
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ducket
8 posts
May 18, 2008
7:40 AM
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Hej All,
I agree that this colour thing should be a USA thing.
Wests originated in Bristol and the West Country,the first club was the City of Bristol Flying Tumbler Club in 1907, its aim was to preserve the TRUE TYPE of the WEST and to organise flying competions, there were many different tumbler breeds going their own way at that time, we still do not know the origins of these birds, we are still guessing at it.
The Wolverhampton Tumblers, are they not the old Maggies with a new name ? the few I have seen look it.
Eric, Denmark.
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Velo99
1759 posts
May 18, 2008
7:46 AM
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Eric,
I woulda like to have seen some of the maccies in the day. Bet they were awesome.
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V99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1239 posts
May 18, 2008
7:59 AM
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I copied and pasted this from another thread.
The maggies from England were actually/still are/the result of the pencil genotype.
David
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Windjammer Loft
323 posts
May 18, 2008
8:03 AM
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To Tony and Velo99....What you have discovered clearly makes sense to me. I now have a much better understanding of this whole TOPIC. And,like it had been stated before,
some people will accept THIS and some WON'T. It is evident that You can lead a horse to water but, You can't make him drink it. Their is clearly NO reason to discuss this topic any further in my mind. Myself,I will clearly stand behind the evidence that Tony and Velo99 have prestnted me with in this thread. And a MUCH needed "Thank You Both" for your investigative reporting. Iam SOLD.....
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 8:06 AM
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ducket
9 posts
May 18, 2008
8:22 AM
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Velo99,
I think your post shed a lot of light on the subject.
For the American Birmingam rollers to have the un usual colors and markings, which is not found out side of America, some crosses with other breeds had to come into the breeding.
As far as I am concern, if a Roller can perform to the Birming Roller standard, immeterial of its color,you can call it a Birming Roller or what ever name you wish to choose.
The bottom line is PERFORMANCE.
I hope one day I will have the privelege to stand onder a performing kit of roller with the so called 'colors'.
Any body in America who breed these colors and paterns who wish to invite me to come and see them perform?
Johnny Conradie
Spinn City
South Africa
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Velo99
1762 posts
May 18, 2008
8:25 AM
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Johnny,
Anytime you are ready come on over here to Texas and we can fly a couple of kits. There are a few guys kinda close we could go visit.
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V99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1240 posts
May 18, 2008
8:29 AM
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Johnnie.If you ever get to come to Pa.it would be a privledge to have you visit me and my lofts.You might not see many Rare colors but I do have Reduced,Indigo,Andys,Opals and Pencil.I know we would have a good time watching the birds and I am sure you could teach me some things.You are Welcome anytime and I will make it suit my schedule anytime you get the chance to come.David
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ducket
10 posts
May 18, 2008
9:00 AM
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Hej Velo99,
Your post on the American Rollers makes more sense, now I know that the so called pure Pensoms with "Colour" cannot be pure Pensom.I can see that it is something you Americans have to sort out.
The Maggies are much the same as the Badges, they just tumble and twizzle about, I am a BR fan, I stick to what I know.Bluesman what is pencil genotype ?.
Eric.
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 9:03 AM
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Velo99
1763 posts
May 18, 2008
9:15 AM
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Thanks Johnny,
With the confirmation of events and the input from you guys across the pond we are getting a pretty comprehensive history of the roller in North America.
I like your term the American Birmingham Roller. Can I use it? ABR sounds like a winner.
If anyone else has anything documentable to contribute please feel free to add to the discussion.
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V99
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Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 9:18 AM
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dmitch
71 posts
May 18, 2008
9:23 AM
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To bad Pensom book didnt have color pic! But winner with spinners did.
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 9:24 AM
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Ty Coleman
285 posts
May 18, 2008
11:23 AM
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Scott as always im glad you always put just my opinion with your signature because you never present any facts to your opinions.You always want to discredit anything that doesnt fit your fancy im open minded dont speculate present your evidence, and not opinion or theory.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
585 posts
May 18, 2008
11:25 AM
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Ty, it is allways my opinion , what do you disagree with ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Windjammer Loft
324 posts
May 18, 2008
11:27 AM
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Just REMEMBER one thing. YOU can't please EVERYONE!!!!!
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Ty Coleman
286 posts
May 18, 2008
11:32 AM
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The two that stood out the most to me was the west was a show breed not true there is a show breed west but there is also a performing breed west,second ive posted Wendell Levi's writings about reduced several times and it was never mentioned that it came out of a kids loft,give me a break man.lol Lets see your evidence dont muddy the water with speculation.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 11:36 AM
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Scott
586 posts
May 18, 2008
11:37 AM
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Ty, the reduced you have came from Baker, where did Baker get it ? regardless of where it came from it came from color breeding,not performance breeding.
As for the Andys it is common knowledge where it came from, and has been long before this site was ever in operation.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 11:38 AM
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Ty Coleman
287 posts
May 18, 2008
11:40 AM
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Scott when did your knowledge exceed Wendell Levi's? It was discover in Carl F. Graefe's loft in 1945
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 11:45 AM
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Scott
587 posts
May 18, 2008
11:46 AM
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Ty, you are right I'm a dip shit and I made it all up just to piss you off , kick ass buddy !
(It was discover in Carl F. Graefe's loft in 1945)
Who the hell is this and where did his birds come from ?
As for Baker,do a little local research
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 11:49 AM
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Ty Coleman
288 posts
May 18, 2008
11:55 AM
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Scott ive never considered you as how you described yourself above but i would like to see your evidence anything can be disputed although ive never seen Wendell Levi disputed i would like to see your evidence im hear to learn.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
589 posts
May 18, 2008
12:03 PM
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Evidence of what Ty ?
(It was discover in Carl F. Graefe's loft in 1945)
Again I ask "who the hell is this and where did his birds come from ? "
The forefathers of the breed (Birmingham) in this country are well documented, so who was Graefe ?
Were these what were called "American Rollers" or Black Country imports ?
As for "your" reduced, they came from Baker, and like I said do a little local detective work.
And while you are at it, Baker had a beef with Pensom over them, find out why.
But then maybe we aren't talking apples for apples here , I only know the Pensom and more recent English imports desendants, not the Wittingham Fire Ball ect which didn't seem to come out old English Black Coutry lofts of the day.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 12:08 PM
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sippi
259 posts
May 18, 2008
12:06 PM
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Scott you said:
(Here is a question , does anyone in the UK know of Wittingham or have have birds going back that way back when ? could be wrong,but my money says no.)
Yes the Whittinghams were well known in England. The problem is in those days England had a rigid caste system and the Whittinghams were of a higher class than Pensom. Pensom was not a property owner and therefore was considered a low class person. I speculate that the reasons Pensom didnt acknowledge them were personal. Pensom actually told Chan Grover that which ever Whittingham was alive during WWII was dead. He knew this was a lie. Whether it was pride or predjudice he could have not at least have known of them.
Everyone should read the books by Joe Quinn and Steve Roth. "In Search Of Those Fabulous Whittinghams" That is where the Karp letter and more are published and tells a lot of info that the enlightened breeder should know. It also clears up a lot of the color falacy. This is not speculation or memories of old men. The book has dozens of actual letters written by these pioneers back and forth to each other.
The reason you dont see many good almonds anymore is because the purists tried to eleminate the almond from the birds in 1949 by changing the standard of the PRC.
There are also some very enlightening documents around the falsifing of pedigrees on "pure Pensom" birds. Pensoms and Whittinghams were not the only rollers here at the developmental stages either. There was a family called Bukovina rollers and a family of Oriental crosses in the forties or fifties.
And yes I already knew this. I have both books and have read them both more than once.
sippi
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Scott
590 posts
May 18, 2008
12:26 PM
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Scott you said:
(Here is a question , does anyone in the UK know of Wittingham or have have birds going back that way back when ? could be wrong,but my money says no.)
Yes the Whittinghams were well known in England. The problem is in those days England had a rigid caste system and the Whittinghams were of a higher class than Pensom. Pensom was not a property owner and therefore was considered a low class person.
Interesting stuff Paul, but weren't most of the "known" forefathers poor working class ?
Are desendants from the Wittinghams being flown today ? most English that I know are breeding out of the same lofts that Pensom pinched birds from
I speculate that the reasons Pensom didnt acknowledge them were personal. Pensom actually told Chan Grover that which ever Whittingham was alive during WWII was dead. He knew this was a lie. Whether it was pride or predjudice he could have not at least have known of them.
(you could be right as it being personal, from what I read it got very "personal" between him and Grahm
Everyone should read the books by Joe Quinn and Steve Roth. "In Search Of Those Fabulous Whittinghams" That is where the Karp letter and more are published and tells a lot of info that the enlightened breeder should know. It also clears up a lot of the color falacy. This is not speculation or memories of old men. The book has dozens of actual letters written by these pioneers back and forth to each other.
(I have no interest in Whittinghams or thier history)
The reason you dont see many good almonds anymore is because the purists tried to eleminate the almond from the birds in 1949 by changing the standard of the PRC.
(or maybe it allways was hard to get a good one with the lethal gene and all, or maybe due to the beauty people were color breeding them other than performance breeding,much like yellows
There are also some very enlightening documents around the falsifing of pedigrees on "pure Pensom" birds.
( that still goes on today , peds have done much harm to many due to abuse that usually goes hand in hand with feather merchants,there is much less of it today though it seems due to birds are much more perfomance prooven , pretty peds don't go far any more)
Pensoms and Whittinghams were not the only rollers here at the developmental stages either. There was a family called Bukovina rollers and a family of Oriental crosses in the forties or fifties.
( who had them, and what happened to them ?)
And yes I already knew this. I have both books and have read them both more than once.
sippi
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
1764 posts
May 18, 2008
1:55 PM
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Scott,
Read the excerpt from Spurlings book. Looks like to me during the 40`s most of the rollers in the USA were all melded into the ABR. The West site quoted is a flying west site. There are still west performance contests,call your buddy Brian and talk to him about it. He has won the national show, and he still flies some of his wests.
Almost any "pure" line has to be imported since about 1950.
I think you just dont want to concede the point you might have some mutts in your loft just like the rest of us.
How ya like that Scotty boy? lol
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V99
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Scott
596 posts
May 18, 2008
2:15 PM
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Kenny , no they weren't, that doesn't even make any sence as it would have been nothing but downbreeding.
There was a reason for the BR imports and thier popularity,and the "American Roller was it's own breed.
Although I'm sure some did in certain lofts and in certain parts of the country.
As for the muffs, no , my birds don't nor do I breed any,mine are very clean legged, but nor do I think any less of muffs as it is in the breed
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 2:41 PM
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Scott
597 posts
May 18, 2008
2:23 PM
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(The West site quoted is a flying west site. There are still west performance contests,)
Oh yea I'm sure that the crossbreeders left them untouched, nor will you find it in the US imports or SA,England ect. as it was crossed in.
PS (Moderated) is on the run as he ripped off many , not exactly a charactor to put any stock in on anything
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 3:26 PM
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sippi
263 posts
May 18, 2008
2:25 PM
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Bukovina are advertised in the old APJ's I will have to look to see who owned. They show up many times. One ad says "NONE BETTER". Imagine that.
The Oriental crosses were a family developed by one person but passed on as Birminghams. I will see if I can find that. I didnt know the breeder or the man that wrote the article that inherited them.
Sippi
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Velo99
1767 posts
May 18, 2008
2:33 PM
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True Scott,
Probably enough guys not involved in the meld to keep certain lines and strains trueand not every breeder did a wholesale switch in his loft. Ya gotta admit though we gotta be pretty close in a lot of the evidence we gathered.
I feel a lot more comfortable with the history of the breed now. Might not be 100 percent but its in the 95th percentile. Thats an A+.
Its kinda fun to piece things together and draw conclusions about exactly how things went down in those days.
yits
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V99
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Scott
598 posts
May 18, 2008
2:53 PM
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Kenny , who were the pioneers in this country for the Black Country Birminghams, It was ,Pensom,Smith,Plona,McCully,Cooper,Norwood,Hilton,Lavinand the like.
The imports were these guys thing , thier passion, everything,I can assure you that they weren't crossing in the American Roller.
Many families aren't far from one of those trees, and then some are a collection of who knows what.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 2:53 PM
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birdman
575 posts
May 18, 2008
3:00 PM
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Almost any "pure" line has to be imported since about 1950.
I think you just dont want to concede the point you might have some mutts in your loft just like the rest of us.
How ya like that Scotty boy? lol
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V99
Scott, the word was 'Mutts' not muffs....LOL
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Ty Coleman
289 posts
May 18, 2008
3:08 PM
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Ive read in many different post that pensom imported birds from the U.S while in England and Exported birds to the England while in the U.S. So why didnt the American Roller have any Part with the Birmingham's origon?
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
599 posts
May 18, 2008
3:11 PM
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(Scott, the word was 'Mutts' not muffs....LOL )
Oh LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
600 posts
May 18, 2008
3:15 PM
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(Ive read in many different post that pensom imported birds from the U.S while in England and Exported birds to the England while in the U.S. So why didnt the American Roller have any Part with the Birmingham's origon?)
Ty ,they were only out of particular lofts and from prior imports or prior imports, it was a pretty tight circle all the way around.
The American Roller is it's own breed with completly different charactoristics.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 3:18 PM
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